Trump won the election saying Mexico would pay for his wall. Now he wants us to pay $5 billion dollars for it. That's "The Art of the Deal" Trump style!

The massive corporate tax breaks have increased the national debt while reducing the public coffers. How are we to pay for needed infrastructure repairs to our roads, bridges and schools?

Brian Rank

Bayou Vista

Locations

(156) comments

Steve Fouga

I believe the cost to be closer to $25B. The $5B is to get started.

Emile Pope

What do you expect from a person that has been a con artist and liar all his life?

Carlos Ponce

Mexico is paying for the wall. And so is Canada!
"I often stated, “One way or the other, Mexico is going to pay for the Wall.” This has never changed. Our new deal with Mexico (and Canada), the USMCA, is so much better than the old, very costly & anti-USA NAFTA deal, that just by the money we save, MEXICO IS PAYING FOR THE WALL!
6:38 AM - Dec 13, 2018 Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
Through renegotiation of other trade deals with other countries, the removal of over regulations on businesses large and small, the increase in people paying taxes even at a lower rate, the increase in GDP and GDI (Gross Domestic Income), etc. etc. etc. revenue is UP. That will pay for the infrastructure repairs.
As for schools, that's a local and state matter, not Federal.

Jim Forsythe

The President can not earmark any money from NAFTA or USMCA. If any money is saved it is mixed with the rest of the money the USA receives. A Budget for the Wall would have to be passed. That is the reason we have a shutdown now!
It is premature to count money from USMCA, as it has not passed congress yet.
It may never become law.
If the wall ever happens, it will be payed by the people of the USA, and no one else.

The GDP is trending down and is expected to continue dropping .
The US economy advanced an annualized 3.4 percent on quarter in the third quarter of 2018, slightly below earlier estimates of a 3.5 percent growth, final figures showed. It follows a 4.2 percent expansion in the previous period which was the highest since the third quarter of 2014. Personal consumption expenditures (PCE) and exports were revised down, and private inventory investment was revised up. However, the general picture of economic growth remains the same.
GDP Growth Rate in the United States is expected to be 2.80 percent by the end of this quarter, according to Trading Economics global macro models and analysts expectations. Looking forward, we estimate GDP Growth Rate in the United States to stand at 2.70 in 12 months time. In the long-term, the United States GDP Growth Rate is projected to trend around 2.00 percent in 2020, according to our econometric models.

Carlos Ponce

At least Jim is acknowledging the money from USMCA is there. That's a step in the right direction. Trump can ask for it in a budget. Or he can get it through the defense fund. A border wall means national defense.
The next GDP release is January 30, 2019 following strong Christmas time sales. Stay tuned.

Jim Forsythe

"Trump can ask for it in a budget. Or he can get it through the defense fund"
If all Trump had to do was to divert funds he would already have done so and he would not have shutdown the government. Money for the wall has to be part of the Budget.
"Congress would have to appropriate the money to make it work — a notion Sen. Tim Scott, R-S.C., touched on over the weekend. Scott said that Congress would "absolutely" need to weigh in on reprogramming defense funds to the border wall."

"At least Jim is acknowledging the money from USMCA is there. "
Carlos, it's not a law so no money has came from USMCA. What I said is any money for the wall has to come from congress and be part of the budget. .


Carlos Ponce

Trump doesn't want to take money out of the defense budget if it can be allocated through Congress.

Emile Pope

He said that Mexico would pay for it...

Jim Forsythe

"Trump doesn't want to take money out of the defense budget if it can be allocated through Congress." That means that Congress controls if the money will be spent on the wall.

Gary Scoggin

Carlos, I believe your explanation of the use of smoke and mirrors to give the impression of non-existent financial transactions is just what the President had in mind. It’s very consistent with his past business practices. The type that led to four bankruptcies and numerous fraud settlements.

Carlos Ponce

Not smoke and mirrors but reality. No one thought Mexico would write an actual check. The pesos will roll in exchanged for dollars.

Emile Pope

What a bunch of nonsense....

George Caros

What is better about the deal just say so doesn't make it so. Which regulations are you talking about? Maybe more mercury in the environment that sounds great love mercury in my water

Carlos Ponce

Caros, USMCA is better than NAFTA. It's still imperfect, but better. If there is mercury in your water it was there before Trump became president.

George Caros

What's different

Jarvis Buckley

Carlos the author of this article & the comments in support of the article are all Trump haters. Just let them spew their hate amongst each other.
It's their comfort food so to speak.
Meanwhile Polosi on vacation, Trumps at the Whitehouse working,
another widow is grieving because an illegal shot her police officer husband dead. After he was pulled over for a traffic violation . It's sickening. I say let them spew.

Gary Scoggin

Fair enough. So do you believe Mexico will write us a check for the wall. Or will we just take it out in trade, as Carlos suggests. Feel free to spew a little.

Steve Fouga

Jarvis, sometimes the haters are right. I think you'd have to agree, because just a few years ago plenty of folks on these very boards were pointing out the Democrats' failed policies.

I get your point, though. I often have to ask myself, "Is that a bad policy because I've analyzed it and decided, or is it bad because it's Trump's?" I'll ask the Trump supporters to substitute the word "good," and do the same.

The Wall is a "policy" I've been forced to think about a lot, mainly because you guys are so vocal about it. I admit that my immediate reaction was strongly negative, but not just because it was Trump's idea. As a former engineer used to working on far larger programs, I immediately recognized it as a boondoggle: a difficult and complex project with a cost that will far outstrip its usefulness, rife with opportunities for corruption, and addressable with less extreme measures, as described by Gary, below.

In short, it's a stunt. In this case, a political stunt.

Carlos Ponce

It's not a political stunt. It's border defense. It's what the border agents are asking for.

Emile Pope

No they're not.

Gary Scoggin

I agree we need better border security. At many places, a wall makes sense. Other places it doesn’t. (We already have a 1400’ high wall at Santa Elena Canyon.) let’s let the border security experts decide. Not the President, not the Democrats, not the talk show hosts. Let’s give them $5 billion dollars to address the highest security risks along the border. If that works, give them another $5 Bn to address the next priority risks. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. It may be walls, it may be a drone fleet, it may be more patrols. But let’s let the people that do this for a living figure out the solution rather than assume we are smarter than they are.

Emile Pope

There is no border threat. So surrendering to trump and rewarding his tantrums doesn’t do anything to improve things. The Democrats offered 1.8 to repair existing structures and that’s all he deserves. Appeasement to a bully is not the answer...

Gary Miller

Emile! The threat at the border is people who think like you are flooding across the border without permission. Build the wall!

Carlos Ponce

"There is no border threat. " So the over 48,000 (according to Snopes) Americans killed by illegals lying in coffins are a figment of our imagination? Just ask an Angel Family if there is "no border threat".

Emile Pope

That's absolutely false. Totally made up garbage...

Emile Pope

And Snopes did not say that...

Dan Freeman

Carlos Ponce wrote: So the over 48,000 (according to Snopes) Americans killed by illegals lying in coffins are a figment of our imagination? Just ask an Angel Family if there is "no border threat".

Mr. Ponce is misquoting both the President and Snopes. The original statement was by Steve Ronnebeck on June 22, 2018: Sixty-three thousand Americans since 9/11 have been killed by illegal aliens,” which was then repeated by the President.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-members-angel-families-immigration/

Snopes concluded: Rating False

“Sixty-three thousand Americans since 9/11 have been killed by illegal aliens,” the president said. … Not only was evidence for that claim lacking, it would require a seemingly superhuman murder spree by the nation’s roughly 11 million undocumented immigrants to be true.”
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/have-undocumented-killed-63000-us-9-11/

Please, everyone check facts you cite.

Carlos Ponce

"A rate of 33 “deaths” per day for the roughly 4.5 years between the 9/11 attacks and the publication of King’s unsubstantiated claim would come out to 48,180 deaths in total"

Carlos Ponce

Last GAO report comes from 7 years ago:
https://www.gao.gov/assets/320/316959.pdf
It lists 25,064 criminal alien arrest for homicide (See p 27 of PDF)
The numbers 48,000 and 63,000 represent estimates since 2001.
Now add those killed by illegal aliens since the report came out in 2011 to the 25,064.

Emile Pope

You said according to Snopes. That is totally false. The end...

Carlos Ponce

"A rate of 33 “deaths” per day for the roughly 4.5 years between the 9/11 attacks and the publication of King’s unsubstantiated claim would come out to 48,180 deaths in total" SNOPES

Emile Pope

Totally false

Carlos Ponce

Okay, Emile. We get it. You don't care about Angel Families. Whether it's just one, one dozen, one hundred, one thousand, ten thousand, YOU JUST DON'T CARE!

Gary Scoggin

Carlos, I thought you were above remarks like that. Ad hominem attacks just show the weakness of your arguments.

Carlos Ponce

If you don't like my response, too bad. "Ad hominem"'s origin is from the Latin meaning "a valid method of persuasion by which a person took advantage of his or her opponent's interests or feelings in a debate" according to Merriam Webster.

Gary Scoggin

Ad Hominem is Latin for to the person. In this sense it usually means that a person can’t effectively argue on substance so they must resort to attacking the other person personally. Our President is particularly adept at this.

Carlos Ponce

Well Gary that's your interpretation. But as my Dad used to say you have to hit a nail on the head to drive a point.

Gary Scoggin

Emile. Threat or not, our southern border is porous. I'm all for making it tighter. But at the same time we need to reform our immigration laws so the we can let the good people in while keeping the bad ones out.

Emile Pope

Wrong on both counts. We don't reward bullies in this country...

George Croix

We don't reward bullies?
Tell that to the shakedown artists Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton....or the people encouraging violence like Corey Booker, and Maxine Waters, and Alec Baldwin, and even Jim Acosta, although in his case it's more showboating followed by whining than bullying.........
For that matter, tell it to Barack Hussein Obama, who'd dislike for and open contempt for Policemen, by the Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the nation, would certainly qualify as 'bullying'...the guy who just 'coincidentally' so often led to taking the side of criminals over officers, and invited the vile trash and cop killer supporters BLM to visit him at the White House......
That's on this planet.
Maybe it's different elsewhere...........

Gary Scoggin

Actually, we do reward bullies. We elected Donald Trump and let him get by with his bullying, boorish behavior. He is the classic bully. Always has been.

Carlos Ponce

Donald Trump is a bully? No he reminds me of Ralphy Parker in "A Christmas Story" who stood up to a bully. If you attack him he'll strike back.

George Croix

The only real 'bullying' difference other than verbal delivery between the current President and the last one is the new guy stabs you in the front....and tells you he's gonna do it.....

Carlos Ponce

' let’s let the border security experts decide. Not the President,"
The president is listening to the border agents. That's why they broke ranks from all the other Federal employees and endorsed Trump in 2016. Trump wants what they are asking for.

Gary Scoggin

So he surveyed the border agents before he announced the wall at Trump Plaza.

Carlos Ponce

EXACTLY!

Emile Pope

Wrong.

Gary Scoggin

Carlos, do you have a source for Donald Trump meeting with border patrol agents before he announced his candidacy? Or is this more made up facts?

Carlos Ponce

During the Bush and Obama administrations border agents and representatives of their labor union were asked what was needed to control the border especially after Obama's DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano nixed the virtual wall and BO halted construction of the "fence". A few phone calls to verify the news reports and Trump had all the information he needed. Among the "news" sources was reports made when politicians like Texas Senator Ted Cruz, Texas Governor Rick Perry, Democrat Congressman Henry Cuellar, etc met with border agents at the border. Sean Hannity did several reports from the border and interviewed border agents.

Emile Pope

That isn’t a source.

Carlos Ponce

Emile, my source says Trump contacted Border Patrol leadership. They include friends, relatives. If that's not good enough for you then so be it. It's good enough for me. On the other hand, Emile always demands proof- but never provides any. Typical Emile.

Emile Pope

Hearsay

Carlos Ponce

Emile asked for my source, I gave it to him and he doesn't like it...
Have a Happy New Year, or are you going to hate that too?

Emile Pope

Sources that he can't name? Friends and relatives? More unsubstantiated garbage offered as proof...

Carlos Ponce

That is so Emile of you. You don't like my sources... fine. It's still the truth.

Emile Pope

You have no sources...

Carlos Ponce

I've got sources but you know Emile, it doesn't matter WHAT you think about them. It is written, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth will set ye free." But the truth hits your mental roadblock. So sad.[sad]

Gary Scoggin

I can't wait to see the wall along the edge of Santa Elena Canyon. Or down the middle of Lake Amistad.

George Croix

Maybe we could make a trade with the Chinese.
They get to steal our technology with TOTAL impunity, in return for showing us how by building us a wall where no wall was possible to be built.....[wink][whistling]

Jose' Boix

The "Wall" seems to be consuming much of our discussion time and funds needed to build it. As an aside, I wonder what are we doing to deal with the problem within us. Just consider the information from a “Yale Study Finds Twice as Many Undocumented Immigrants as Previous,” published September 21, 2018. It states that:
“Generally accepted estimates put the population of undocumented immigrants in the United States at approximately 11.3 million. A new study, using mathematical modeling on a range of demographic and immigration operations data, suggests that the actual undocumented immigrant population may be more than 22 million.”
Seems that we are just accepting and sort of dealing with this huge and significant issue by letting it fester without resolution or even a plan. Just my thoughts.

George Croix

Jose', Step 1 for dealing with the reality of a hole on the rowboat is to plug the hole, THEN try to bail enough of the water out to avoid sinking.
On the subject of illegals, we've got MORE millions, citizens, some of them local, and from BOTH sides of politics, who think just watching the water keep flowing into the boat is the thing to do.
Hard to fix a problem when you can't get enough people to care that there is one.

George Croix

137,000 people entering the country illegally at just ONE location in just one year is not a threat?
With any due respect, that's an...uh...amazing.......claim?...but, expected......

Anyway, at 5 Billion, or 25 Billion, or 4 times taller and 100 BILLION, it's STILL a bargain compared to what we're paying out for people who are not even supposed to be here.
The maternity wards , emergency rooms, and schools would be the first beneficiaries of fewer unsolicited and unnecessary users of those services.......

If you spent 10,000 dollars a year on a security service for your business, and could spend the same amount one time for modifications and then have 90% of your security needs removed, thus saving 9 grand a year, EVERY year, then NOT doing so would fall under the category of a) lousy business, or b) hopeless myopia about your poroblem, or, c), simple unfixability.....
Or, d) 'resistance' to reality......, which is just another form of c)........

IMO, as always...

Gary Scoggin

On the other hand there are studies that say illegal immigration is a net plus for the economy. And then I heard a guy on Fox News earlier today saying that each illegal immigrant cost $125,000. Ask two economists a question and you'll get six answers. The fun part is we all get to pick one we like.

George Croix

OK.
Fair enough. Tell me HOW illegal aliens can be a 'net plus' for America?
Who's net would that be? Looks to me like that net is full of holes, but, maybe that's just me.....
It sure as heck isn't the 'net' at hospitals, maternity wards, and schools.
How is it a positive for a large percentage of the day spent for Child 1, citizen, to wait for Child 2, illegal, to be taught in a different language and play catch up to simple concepts that the others already grasp?
Is it 'positive' for taxpayers to spend, what, 10 grand plus, EACH, for anchor babies maternity?
As but two more examples, Do we REALLY have to have 10 cent cheaper salads and couldn't the fat bodies get up and mow their own yards?

No. Picking the one we like doesn't matter. What matters is picking the one that costs us more..................

George Croix

There's a song that says "Silence is golden".
Maybe, but it sure isn't informative.........................[beam][beam]

Carlos Ponce

"On the other hand there are studies that say illegal immigration is a net plus for the economy."
I guess when one can hire illegals and pay them under-the-table sub-minimum wage salaries with no perks like health care someone benefits. And if they give you any problem just holler "immigra"!

Emile Pope

Proof?

Carlos Ponce

And now we have Democrats holding a religious "litmus test" for judicial nominees.
Senators Dick Durbin and Dianne Feinstein challenged Amy Coney Barrett, a law professor from Notre Dame who is Catholic on her religious beliefs in 2017.
Now we have Senators Mazey Hirono and Kamala Harris questioning judicial nominee Brian C. Buescher on his membership in the Catholic Church's Knights of Columbus.
I pray that not all Democrats have religious bigotry but their Senate leaders sure do, It was said that Democrat Senator John F. Kennedy closed the anti-Catholic door when elected President. Today's Democrat Senators have re-opened it.
If you are a Democrat opposed to anti-religious bias then don't vote for politicians who are. It makes your party look bad.

Paul Hyatt

For all of you who hate the idea of building a wall to protect our nation, I would ask this simple question. Why do you have locks on your doors? Why do you have locks on your car and personal property? If you are allowed the locks on your doors, why can we not lock down our porous border to protect our nation? I bet NONE of you will go an unlock your doors at night and or when you are gone away from your house as you want to protect your house. That is all we who voted for Trump wants to be done is protect our land from the invaders who are coming across and do NOT want to assimilate into our nation nor learn our language!

Steve Fouga

This question is getting old. It's not relevant to our border issues.

If I had trained agents patrolling my yard, harsh terrain surrounding it, a fence already protecting the most accessible parts of it, satellite and drone surveillance in addition to manned fixed- and rotary-winged overflights, I would proudly leave my doors unlocked.

George Croix

Irrelevant, Steve.
EACH person along the border does not have that individualized protection, Steve.
That's the whole point of making it harder for illegal crossings.
Even with the improvements now in place, the border CANNOT be constantly totally monitored or areas of activity responded to in time to prevent all entries, or any resulting harm to American citizens, physically or financially.
But a better designed and built hard barrier COULD greatly increase both prevention and apprehension...and at a cost less than is spent paying for the illegals who sneak, or openly walk, in now.
Actually, it's a bargain, unless the goal IS to ultimately grant amnesty and increase a targeted voter supply, in which case, it's better to say 'walls don't work', and hope enough listening are of a type that is capable of buying into that....
There's a reason a castle was built with a surrounding wall, rather than just guards posted at each doorway to each building.....same reason a fenced yard is incrementally more secure than one relying just on doors....locked or not....
The cost of a border wall is NOTHING compared to the expense of not having one, and that will only get worse as we ultimately 'take in' 50%, plus, of Central America, rather than just a third of parts of it already............
Perhaps a good question to ask the very folks Way Up There now opposing securing the border who openly advocated for it just a few years ago is WHY they have changed their minds.
I suspect, if a last remaining grain of truth could be drug out of them, that the issue is NOW not what is proposed, but who is proposing it.....
What we need is a last remaining grain of objective journalism to ferret that out....

Good luck to us waiting for that.................

Steve Fouga

You pretty much proved my point. Whether I'd leave my door unlocked is an irrelevant question that has nothing to do with our border issues. I'm tired of seeing it every time the Wall is mentioned in this forum. My door and the border pose different problems. Solve them differently.

OF COURSE a wall provides more of a barrier to border crossings than no wall. I just don't think it's practical. I don't even think it can be built for $25B. In my opinion a more diversified, layered set of defenses would do almost as good a job more cheaply.

Here's another option: Spend some money to bring Mexico and Central America into the 21st century, and their people wouldn't be so determined to flee. Build a solid wall of loyal allies and trading partners to our south. Hell, we've spent more propping up and rehabilitating genuine enemies than we have on allies in our own backyard.

Carlos Ponce

"Spend some money to bring Mexico and Central America into the 21st century, and their people wouldn't be so determined to flee."
Steve, they're already spending money in Mexico and Central America for that purpose. And guess what? The politicians in charge use that money, not for the people but for their own lifestyles .
"In 2018, the U.S. government will give Mexico $87,660,000 in foreign aid. The largest segment, 56 percent, will go toward peace and security. The second largest segment will go toward democracy, human rights and governance."
Yeah, right. Mexico is very corrupt. Peace, security, democracy, human rights, governance sound nice but it's just rhetoric.
https://www.reference.com/government-politics/much-foreign-aid-united-states-give-mexico-d1238a7e5dd87a09
"In a bipartisan move, the United States Senate has pledged to send $675 million in foreign aid to Central America. The aid will be part of the 2016 budget proposal and will target El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala."
https://borgenproject.org/central-america-foreign-aid/
Cheaper ? Yes but the money still goes to government officials in those respective countries.
"How US Aid to Central America’s Rich Drives Its Poor to Our Borders - The major beneficiaries of US aid and protection dwell in luxury, educate their children abroad and generally live the life of the global rich. "
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-faux/how-us-aid-to-central-ame_b_5525314.html
Some of the money does go to help what you mention but not much.

George Croix

Aahhhh......
So, PAY the Central Americans to not break our laws, and steal our resources, rather than spend less to build exclusionary facilities to minimize them from doing that.....
Interesting concept.
Maybe we could expand that and just pay criminals in this country enough money to not make them want to be criminals.
But, of course, that would be irrelevant.....[beam]

Carlos Ponce

Old? Perhaps, but RELEVANT!
"a fence already protecting the most accessible parts of it" Really? Remember the game "Red Rover"? Red Rover, Red Rover, let Steve come over! And Steve would head straight for the weakest link on the other side, not the strongest. And the border has PLENTY of weak links.

sheryl tillson

Really? If the ones entering the country are not a problem then you should not have a problem leaving your doors unlocked. Maybe you should check with all the celebrities supporting open borders... how their security fences, cameras & hired security are working for them. And of course cost is not a problem for them!

Emile Pope

Trump said that Mexico would pay for the wall. Why aren't you holding him accountable for not fulfilling his promise instead of blaming the Democrats for keeping theirs? Trump lied about who would pay for the wall just as he's lied about almost everything else...

Carlos Ponce

Mexico will pay for the wall. That's not a lie. Some Democrats are just too narrow in their interpretation of what paying for the wall looks like. Just like they were narrow in their interpretation of what Trump meant by a "wall".

Jim Forsythe

Carlos what did Trump mean when he said a "wall?
Is it a wall or a fence?
"Trump has said the wall could cost $8 billion to $12 billion, be made of precast concrete, and rise 35 to 40 feet, or 50 feet, or higher."
Carlos, what does "paying for the wall looks like"?
"I will build a great wall -- and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me --and I'll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words."

Unless Trump has 5 Billion , it will require the House and Senate to pass the spending. He can not use money for the wall unless they say OK. If he already had the money, he would have not have shut down the Government .
Maybe it is the SHS plan (Sarah Huckabee Sanders) that will enable Trump to find the 5 Billion. The rest of the money( 20 Billion to 70 Billion) will come from?
"We have other ways that we can get to that $5 billion that we'll work with Congress," White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders told Fox News .
Even the SHS plan requires the House and senate to say OK.
"There are certainly a number of different funding sources that we can identify and use that we can couple with the money that would be given through Congressional appropriations that would help us get to that $5 billion that the president needs to protect our borders," Sanders said.

Mexico is in trouble, because Trump is going to do" something very severe" to them.
“you force them because we give them a fortune. Mexico makes a fortune because of us. A wall is a tiny little peanut compared to that. I would do something very severe unless they contributed or gave us the money to build the wall.”

Carlos Ponce

I explained all that during the 2016 campaign.

Emile Pope

"Walls don't work"... signed Germany, France, China, and Jericho...maybe they could tell trump that the wall is being built with clear bricks for better visibility...

Carlos Ponce

The German wall was built to keep people in, not out and it divided their country.
China's wall fell in disrepair. But when built and upkept - it worked.
God asked Nehemiah to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.
Israel's current wall works.
And there's a huge wall around Heaven built by GOD.
Add to that the wall built by Barack Obama II around his new home. No one has breached that. It must e working.

Jim Forsythe

"I explained all that during the 2016 campaign". Please explain again , as it was at election time and you have said it does not counts during that time, as all lie during that time. (Political rhetoric)

I want to make sure I know what "a wall" is according to Trump and you.
Also explain how Mexico is going to pay for it !
If we are going to go by what Trump said , it's going to be concrete and huge.

Carlos Ponce

No, Jim. Let me explain it one more time. In some places it will be a brick and mortar wall. In other places it will be a bollard wall where one can see the other side. Some places will be electronic surveillance like cameras, drones, other forms of sensors, infrared detectors even satellite supervision. Who will determine what goes where? THE BORDER PATROL who have had input into the process. That was explained back in 2016 but the Liberal media only reported the part they wanted you to hear or read. I also posted it during the campaign.

George Croix

Actually, Pope, the Berlin Wall worked quite well for it's intended purpose for about a quarter century, until the Commies went too broke to fight Reagan anymore. A lot of dead Germans could attest to that, were they not dead, along with many thousands upon thousands of formerly thoroughly confined East Germans.......
The Great Wall of China worked for a lot longer than that, and to this day requires sidetracking to get around it in many places...but, it still hampers free, unlimited access .
The Maginot Line was hampered by being incomplete, allowing German armored divisions to go ultimately end around it, and even worse hampered by being manned by the French military, more disposed at the time to be fleet of foot than sure of shots. Far as I know, the Central American invaders do not have access to tanks...

NONE of these were perfect, just as no border wall is. But, to say they unequivocally 'didn't work' is certainly a great and expected talking point, but, that's all.....imo.....

Jericho?
What? You figure God intends to intervene and have the southern border wall knocked down.......[beam][beam]
Maybe......
He could spend His time better passing out a clue or two, though...again, IMO....
BUT, even if that happened, the wall, at least would not be unfixable, something unable to be said for all things concerned......

No doubt, you've fired off a letter to ex-Pres. Obama letting him know that the wall he had built around his personal mansion is an exercise in futility....
No?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm........there's a reason for that.......[whistling]

Jim Forsythe

Also explain how Mexico is going to pay for it !

Carlos Ponce

Trump has already explained how Mexico is going to pay for the wall. And I re-posted that tweet explaining it.

George Croix

Jim, I dunno if they WILL ever do so or not, but the possibility is soooo close.
'Paying for' can be involuntary, as easily as voluntary......
To get started, absent any sign of Dem. sanity, or any possibility they'd revert back to when they were FOR securing the border, ACTUALLY securing, that which they were FOR, before they were against it, that would mean take away ALL 'foreign aid' to Centr. Amer., and close down the border to tourism in their third world holes with selected areas of cheap booze and entertainment.
It CAN be done. The gutless Republican Old Guard and even worse Left want no part of it, now, though............so, the odds are about the same as Galveston County ever actually enforcing regs against 'game rooms'......slim and none, and slim is planning a trip out of town..............

George Croix

ps:
That's about the 11-teenth replay of HOW Mexico would pay for the Wall.
May not agree it'll happen, but it IS eminently workable.....just about the same as garnishing a paycheck to collect on a debt..........

Emile Pope

President Obama paid for his security himself. Let trump pay for his wall out of his own pocket...

Carlos Ponce

"President Obama paid for his security himself."
No, as president, WE paid for it. And as ex-president, WE pay for for his secret service protection. He continues on a presidential pension that WE pay for.
"The Former Presidents Act lays out the benefits past presidents receive after they leave office, including a pension and additional funds for travel, office space, staff, and other requirements needed to 'maintain the dignity' of the presidency.
Per the statute, Obama’s annual presidential pension is $205,700—the same amount as former presidents George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, and Jimmy Carter. The amount is linked to Cabinet Secretary pay, which is set at Executive Level I pay."
http://time.com/money/4640736/barack-obama-joe-biden-pension/
Trump on the other hand DONATES his salary.

Jim Forsythe

George, even if we collect money from Mexico in some form, it would have to be approved by the Senate before it could be spent on the wall. If Trump tries to get around this restraint, he would encounter a strong backlash.
Sanity is in the eye of the beholder. The goal is securing the border, but each has a different view on what is needed

Not all Republican are in favor of the wall.
Many Republicans that oppose the wall don’t necessarily oppose stronger border control, they just disagree with using the wall as the means to that end. For example, Republican Representative Will Hurd stated, “Building a wall is the most expensive and least effective way to secure the border.'
"If you're going to spend that kind of money, you're going to have to show me where you're going to get that money," said Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski" "I don't see how you can get a bill like that through (Congress) without offsets," she added.


George Croix

Face a strong backlash!!!!
NOOOO!!!!!
Say it ain't so.............[beam][beam]
Why the heck should he CARE about 'backlash' when, guilty or innocent, the 'resistance' has been 'backlasheing' from Day 1, along with 98% of the media and about half or more of the citizenry and all of the 'illegary' , fighting not just HIMSELF (he'll never learn about that....) but every single leftist on the planet and at least a third of what passes for conservatives.
A backlash!!!!
Funny stuff.......
The last guy didn't face a 'backlash' above token for getting 4 Americans killed, yucking it up after another got beheaded, letting ISIS move from 'JV" to First Team All M.E., demonizing our Police at every turn, inviting trash like BLM to the White House, et al, yet this guy gets a 'backlash' for trying to prevent the country from being overrun and further bankrupted b y an invading force of illegal aliens!!????
Well, Happy New Year to the 'backlashers', too......
Here's open a fix is found...........[wink]

George Croix

ps:
Using an 'R' to get elected no more makes anyone, especially Murkowski, a Republican than getting a drivers license makes one a good driver............

Carlos Ponce

Representative Hurd needs to go to the border patrol and ask them what is needed. Primary is a BORDER WALL among other things to stem illegal crossings which include drug traffickers, child and sex traffickers.
ASK THEM!
The rank and file will tell you BUILD THE WALL!
Why do you think their union supported Donald J. Trump in 2016 and continue to support him?
Read ICE director Ronald D. Vitiello's report:
"This is achieved primarily through the use of man - made infrastructure such as a physical wall, and the complementary deployment of personnel, roads, and technology. Border barriers have enhanced – and will continue to enhance – CBP’s operational capabilities by creating an enduring capability that impedes illegal cross - border activity and facilitates the deterrence and prevention of illegal entries." Page 5 of PDF
https://docs.house.gov/meetings/HM/HM11/20180522/108323/HHRG-115-HM11-Wstate-VitielloR-20180522.pdf
The head of U.S. Customs and Border Protection Kevin McAleenan said Border Patrol agents need more barriers and a wall to help them keep people from entering the United States illegally.
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/us-border-kevin-mcaleenan-border-wall-trump/2018/12/17/id/894786/
Makes you wonder who Representative Hurd is listening to. Not the heads of ICE or CPB nor the men and women who actually enforce border security.
I smell a RINO.

Gary Scoggin

Yep, Carlos, I’m sure that Rep. Hurd, a former CIA undercover officer whose district covers 800 miles of the Texas - Mexico border has no idea of what he’s talking about. He only is Vice Chair of the House Border Security Subcommittee and sits on the Counterterrorism and Intelligence Subcommittee so how could he know what’s happening. He’s certainly not as well versed as your anonymous, possibly fictional “sources” and has no where the experience of a certain failed Manhattan real estate developer who happens to be a branding expert. Yep, if Rep. Hurd didn’t say what I wanted him to, I’d try to discredit him myself.

Jim Forsythe

41 more RINO's or Republican's? The bill failed in the House in a 193-231 vote.
If a Republican votes against Republican bill or stance, they become a RINO?
06/22/2018
Forty-one House Republicans voted against a bill Friday that would have secured funding for President Donald Trump’s border wall, addressed Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) and included E-verify, among other conservative provisions.
Members voted on an amended version of GOP Reps. Bob Goodlatte of Virginia and Michael McCaul of Texas’s bill that provided more border security funding, only granted DACA recipients a temporary protected three-year legal status with no pathway for citizenship — which moderate Republicans are fervently asking leadership to provide.

Carlos Ponce

It's apparent he's not listening to the Border Agents, the ICE director or CPB director.
Who's he listening to?
The drug traffickers?
The sex traffickers?
The child traffickers?
They feed him enough money to get re-elected - not my brand of Conservative. You haven't given me anything that disproves he's a RINO. A member of the deep state perhaps.

Carlos Ponce

Jim wrote 41 Republicans did not vote for the bill. Were they against the wall? No. They were mostly for the wall. Why vote against it?
"members who voted against the bill did so because leadership altered the bill before the final vote, adding on amendments and provisions they deemed 'amnesty.' "
https://dailycaller.com/2018/06/22/republicans-who-voted-against-border-security/
You're posting about H.R.4760 - Securing America's Future Act of 2018.
The final vote failed 191 - 234. Included in the nays are Republicans Hurd who was against the wall and Gohmert and Weber who were FOR the wall but against the amnesty provisions.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/4760/all-actions?overview=closed&q=%7B%22roll-call-vote%22%3A%22all%22%7D

Emile Pope

President Obama did not build a wall around his property. Some clueless people didn’t know that. And he doesn’t have to justify how he spends his legally earned money. If they want a wall at the border then let them pay for it themselves instead of burdening the taxpayers with the bill.

Gary Scoggin

RINo is a funny term. The folks claiming to be be Republicans these days have sullied that once grand party. Today’s “Republicans” would never accept Ronald Reagan, George Bushor Bob Dole. Now because someone like Will Hurd, who knows what he’s talking about, is a Deep State RINO because he disagrees with you, Hannity and Rush on a term - “wall” - which you guys and your President can’t even define the same way twice in a row. Sad, as your talking points tell you to say.

George Croix

Nice try with the rental house versus 'his property' semantics, Pope.

The DC mansion is one of his living places, and he had a wall built there, so 'clueless' is correct, but about 180 degrees off.....,again...........

Jim Forsythe

Rep. Hurd's voting recorded.
March 1, 2016
Voting with Republicans 96% of time.
I guess if you do not vote 100%, you are a RINO. He was elected to represent the people in his part of Texas and that is how he is voting. He has town hall meetings and listens to what they want.

Gary Scoggin

Jim, don’t bother. Carlos is unpersueded by facts, only Hannity.

Carlos Ponce

"President Obama did not build a wall around his property." True. The government to hired a contractor to build it. It has a guard shack, brick pillars and metal bars on it. Call it wall, fence or whatever. It's a barrier.

Carlos Ponce

Will Hurd represents the 23rd Congressional district which voted Hillary in 2016. So that district isn't very Conservative and elected a Congressman with similar views.

Carlos Ponce

" Carlos is unpersueded by facts, only Hannity."
I don't listen to Hannity all the time but when he's right, he's right. Truth is, I listen and read sources other than Hannity to form an opinion.

Jim Forsythe

Carlos, did you even look at the fence in front of the Obamas. It is wrought iron with decorative accents anchored between brick post, that are about 8 feet apart. It has wide open steps to the front door. The spacing between each Picket is standard. It is also built on top of a 2 foot brick wall. Total height of the fence is what most fences are. It matches what the neighbors have.
Next door neighbors include Ivanka Trump and her husband, Jared Kushner.
According to one neighbor “There’s a fence that goes along the front of the house, but it’s the same as the other neighbors have. It’s tastefully done.” And another neighbor confirmed that the house is “100 percent visible from the street.”
.


Gary Scoggin

You could have fooled me.

Emile Pope

President Obama didn’t pay for a wall at his new residence. Please learn the facts...

Carlos Ponce

"President Obama didn’t pay for a wall at his new residence."
The fence/wall, guardhouse at the Obama residencewas paid for with tax dollars without Mexican subsidies. The border wall will be paid by Mexicans through billions coming in through USMC.

Jim Forsythe

Carlos said :"Will Hurd represents the 23rd Congressional district which voted Hillary in 2016. So that district isn't very Conservative and elected a Congressman with similar views."

Carlos. what percent would Rep. Hurd's have had to win by, not to make him a RINO or is he a RINO because Trump did not win?
Hillary won 49% to 46% not a large difference in the 23ed. From this you say Rep. Hurd must be a RINO because Trump did not win the 23ed .
Maybe people voted for the person that they wanted to lead them and Trump was not the one for 23ed.This make's
Rep. Hurd's win more impressive as he did not have a wave of people voting for Trump in his district.
From this I get that if you do not vote Republican all the time you are not a good Republican (RINO) because good Republicans can not vote for the best candidate, even if they are Republican. Would it have made you happy if Rep. Hurd had lost?
You have to remember that 2016 was the closest Democrats had come to winning Texas since 1996. Was the state full of RINO's or is the state starting to turn purple?
Trump was not able to get more than 26.75% of the vote in the primary in Texas compared to 43.76% for the winner in the state of Texas.

Carlos Ponce

Get over it, Jim. Will Hurd is a person who does not listen to the actual border patrol agents as to what is needed to guard against illegal entry into this country including drug traffickers, sex traffickers, child traffickers.That's very RINO of him.

Jim Forsythe

The USMC has not even passed, so no money is coming in from it as of now. It may never pass.
Any money that is produced, if any, will not go to the border fence. The fence would be financed by the Senate, House and President if they say build that fence.
USMC money, if it ever happens, will not be earmarked for the fence.
To say that USMC money will pay for the fence , is saying that the people of the USA money will pay for the fence.
Any USMC money would become the people of the USA's money, not Trumps.


Jim Forsythe

The people that put him to office is who he listen too. Is this not what a representative is elected to do?
They are saying no to the fence. So he votes as they want him to do. This is bad how?
Instead of voting like you want him to, he listened to the people that elected him.
We would better-off if more representatives, did so?

Unless he is a Lemmings, you think he is a RINO?

Carlos Ponce

Jim, the president can earmark whatever he wants in his budget. No threat of a veto if the Nancys don't include it in their budget bill. It will not get through the Senate.
And look at who is defending Will Hurd. Not the Conservative forum posters but the Liberals. Birds of a feather.....

Emile Pope

Another clueless individual thinks that the only source of income President Obama receives is from his pension. And that they have a say in how people spend their money that they legally earned. They also believe that money from tariffs goes to the government instead of individuals. And finally they think that the taxes on the increased income to individuals would pay for the wall (which is complete garbage). We'll just shake our heads and walk away from them as they jabber on...

Jim Forsythe

Carlos, earmarks are used by individual legislators in the U.S. Congress. Does the President have earmarks that he can use? If he tries to fund the fence himself, he will face the Congress's questions and he would be required to justify why he went around the process set out by our four fathers. This would lose him support form the congress.
If he could use earmarks to fund the fence, he would already have done so. He would not have shutdown the government if he could fund the fence.
If Trump can fund the fence himself, why would he shutdown the government?

Earmark spending; also called "pork barrel" spending, is funding inserted into the annual federal budget by individual legislators in the U.S. Congress.

Jim Forsythe

"And look at who is defending Will Hurd. Not the Conservative forum posters but the Liberals. Birds of a feather"
It's amazing that you would think that someone who vote 96% of the time with the Republicans is no longer Republican.
Beside yourself, who has said anything against Rep. Hurd on this forum ?
Would it make you happy if next time a Democrat defeats him?
To try and call him a turncoat just because he did not vote 100% Republican, is saying a Representative should not represent the people that elected him, just because some in his party thinks one way only.

Carlos Ponce

Jim, I did not know "earmark" had a specific definition. Suffice it to say the PRESIDENT can SPECIFY items in a proposed budget .Let's hear from the President himself:
Mexico is paying for the Wall through the new USMCA Trade Deal. Much of the Wall has already been fully renovated or built. We have done a lot of work. $5.6 Billion Dollars that House has approved is very little in comparison to the benefits of National Security. Quick payback!
5:35 AM - 2 Jan 2019
And the 96% comes from 8 years of legislation. If you were to look at the last year or two years Hurd's legislation percentage would not be so high.Could be he's suffering from ITBWS (In the Belt way Syndrome).

Jim Forsythe

Carlos:
"Much of the Wall has already been fully renovated or built" is not true. What is true, not many miles
of pedestrian barrier has been built.(Just 354 miles )

Sept. 20, 2017
Roughly one-third of the U.S.-Mexico border, or 654 miles, has security fencing, according to extensive government reporting on the subject.In some ways, that number is misleading: There are just 354 miles of pedestrian barrier. The rest is vehicle barrier, low-lying posts designed to stop cars and trucks. “Vehicle fencing has been effective in slowing and prohibiting drive throughs, vehicle fencing is not designed to slow or deter illegal entrants from entering or smuggling contraband,” a 2017 report from the Government Accountability Office states.Some segments seem truly wide open.
The Border Patrol’s Big Bend Sector in Texas covers 510 miles of border and has only 5 miles of fence.
Some of the fence that they are talking about has been replaced.


George Croix

Pope, speaking of accountability and lies, Obama said we could keep our doctor and policy, that a video got 4 Americans killed, that ISIS was the JV, that the 'Gentle Giant' was not at fault but Police were, that we needed border security, that the Cambridge Police acted stupidly, that America could lead from behind, that we didn't really pay Iran for our hostages, that the 'Iran Deal' would prevent them ever going nuclear, that the Keystone pipeline holdup was not political, that more young black men were in prison than in colleges or universities, that the Bush Tax Cuts caused 90% of the recession, that the Sequester was not any doing of his, that he had fired a lot of the people responsible for the VA debacle leading to veterans deaths................and on and on and on.............
Each of which was an actual issue that impacted Americans directly, not just some future wish or claim for it...............
The 'resistance' speaks with more forked tongues than Medusa had writhing around on her head...imo, of course....

Gary Scoggin

George, I went back and checked. Obama is no longer President.

George Croix

And that has what to do with the subject of Presidential accountability and lies, Gary.
Did he pardon himself before leaving office............[beam][beam]

Just in your personal case, how are you going to make any legitimate points with the 'climate change deniers' if you don't reference the past climate as part of the whole subject, Gary, as but one of, oh, gazillions of things that lend relevance and context to any topic? Especially in the context of 'it's worse now'???
That's the kind of dodge the usual suspects make. Maybe it's contagious....

Bull-o-knee........

Emile Pope

That puts trump ahead by 7500...and to talk about President Obama statements as being bad but totally excuse trump's numerous lies is hypocrisy at its finest. And it doesn't help matters when you say things he said were false when they weren't...

George Croix

You must be talking about somebody else, again, Pope, because I have never excused Pres. Trump for any of that, and don't even personally like the guy, as stated numerous times.
So, yet again, making up your own narrative to suit yourself.

As for that last sentence, well, straight from the mouth of a subject matter expert on saying something is, that ain't.....

Happy New Year, pope.
Don't ever change.
The world needs you to set an example...................

sheryl tillson

Well said!

Emile Pope

I heard trump"s going to build a bridge to port bolivar and get the dolphins to pay for it...

Carlos Ponce

You're being silly. Here's a New Year's Gift for Emile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCkmOCsI-hc

Carlos Ponce

So Emile, where does Obama get his income other than pensions? According to Emile Pope the stock market CRASHED so he cannot make income off investments. [beam]
If he does get income from investments then Emile Pope would have to admit the stock market did not crash.
Maybe Obama has a Go Fund Me account set up.[wink]

Emile Pope

Didn't you said that it didn't a few days ago? I would guess that he has better financial advisers than you. And in case you didn't know (you didn't), not everyone loses money when the market crashes. Since you seem totally ignorant of the great President Obama's income streams, I won't mention speaking fees, books, etc..so as not to upset your delicate nature.

George Croix

Too funny...........
Now the dodge is who didn't actually pay for a wall out of pocket.
A wall obviously there now. That wasn't there previously. One obviously wanted. One obviously daily used. A wall in direct contrast to the mantra 'Walls don't work',......
Hmmmmm.......so, if we could get somebody else besides Mexico or the USA, say, Lower Slobovia, to pay for a Southern Border wall, that would be OK with the usual suspects, the 'resistance', and assorted other hand wringers.....because then none of the current potential sources of funding of this project 'used their own money'??
Like, unless it's paid for directly BY Pres. Trump himself, then it doesn't count as being 'his wall'.....like that other guy's??

Can't fix that...............

Emile Pope

"A wall obviously there now. That wasn't there previously. One obviously wanted". Totally false. The end...

Gary Scoggin

You guys are actually arguing about the wall in front of Barack Obama's house? Boy this discussion got ridiculously irrelevant.

George Croix

I'm not arguing, Gary. I'm explaining why I'm right.
Waste of time for Mr. Proof, but I need to get some use out of the St. Jude medallion (the patron saint of lost causes) my wife gave me back when attempts were being made by many to convince our new owners that you really COULDN'T run an oil refinery like running a motorcycle manufacturer.
Perhaps Pope didn't see the pix of the workers building the wall in front of the Obama DC residence. Or the multiple articles written about it.
Or, perhaps like just about every other subject, it's just a case of everyone else's lyin' eyes....or maybe a Russian plot of some kind.....
personally, I find the entertainment value alone to be near priceless.....
Irrelevant?
That could include your comment, Gary, since this is an informal opinion forum in a small town newspaper...but, I, myself, support the participation, pro or con....

Emile Pope

There is no wall around President Obama's residence. There are no pictures of a wall around his residence. There is no wall there...

Carlos Ponce

It is a brick and mortar retaining wall with pillars with steel posts above the wall. It tops out at about 8 feet tall. Emile can scale that, right?

Emile Pope

Totally false. Notice that there are no pictures of this "wall" submitted by anyone. Just a bunch of unsubstantiated comments. Guess Mexico didn't build a wall for him either...

Carlos Ponce

Picture:
http://www.theamericanmirror.com/photos-crews-build-wall-around-new-obama-dc-home/
It is a brick and mortar retaining wall with pillars with steel posts above the wall. It tops out at about 8 feet tall as described.

Jim Forsythe

It has wide open steps to the front door with no retaining device too stop someone from coming to the front door.Scaling it would not pose a problem for someone wanting to get over it.
Too think what is in front of Obamas house is like the border fence, one must believe that the specs for the border fence have been downsized.

It is wrought iron with decorative accents anchored between brick post, that are about 8 feet apart. It has wide open steps to the front door. The spacing between each Picket is standard. It is also built on top of a 2 foot brick wall. Total height of the fence is what most fences are. It matches what the neighbors have.

Emile Pope

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/12/31/trump-claims-theres-foot-wall-around-obamas-dc-home-neighbors-say-theres-not/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a1ca3224f380

Carlos Ponce

"no retaining device too stop someone from coming to the front door"
I'd call the armed Secret Service Agents in the guard house next to the steps a suitable restraining device, wouldn't you? Try getting in there, Jim, You'd be stopped in less than a DC second.
"It is also built on top of a 2 foot brick wall." so THERE IS a wall there! [beam]

Jim Forsythe

Same size as border fence,

Carlos Ponce

Trump's barrier is BIGGER!

Jim Forsythe

Yes it is!

Jim Forsythe

We were talking about fence , which the walkway has none.
I may be stopped or I maybe welcomed with open arms.
You never know, who I may know.

What's a DC second?

Carlos Ponce

A DC second is far quicker than a New York minute.

George Croix

Now, I suppose, we are going to redefine what constitutes a wall, and unless it's a wall like we each say a wall is, then, it';s not really a wall, it just looks somewhat like a wall, but, it's not high enough, or too high, or not totally closed, or too open, or......
So, if a fence made of brick is not a wall, then is a wall made of brick actually a fence?
I'm gonna demand a cut in my taxes............

I hope the lawyers present better cases during jury duty.....


Jim Forsythe

George, the only reason the 2 foot wall is part of the fence system , it was already in place( it may have been a flower garden),. They used this 2 foot wall as a base for the wrought iron fence with decorative accents anchored between brick post that are about 8 feet apart. The pickets on the fence has spacing between each Picket that are standard.


Carlos Ponce

Everything was done per Secret Service request. Funny that Dems like it when the Secret Service request construction but when the CBP and ICE request something they IGNORE it.

George Croix

Jim, if Pres. Trump stacked two bricks together on the ground near Brownsville, and/or drove two old broom handles into the ground, the usual suspects of the 'resistance' would be hollering that "he's building a wall !!!!".
But unless ex-Pres. Obama builds one 20 feet high of solid brick with no gaps or entryways, it's NOT a wall. It's just 'standard'.....
Bull-o-knee.....
But, totally expected.
It's just a hoot hearing the ways in which derangement and 'resistance' expresses itself.
I'll miss that while being tied up in other matters for quite some time soon, but, then again, in this County, maybe not.....

Jim Forsythe

I guess that means that it is the Secret Services fence.

Carlos Ponce

It's a government fence/wall that enhances the value of said property when the Obamas move out once their daughters finish private schooling. Who gets the money for the government improvements when sold? Not us, not the Secret Service nor any government entity. I suggest they turn it back into a museum.

Emile Pope

Then buy the property and turn it into one. If the Obamas decide to sell the property the government doesn’t get it back. Real estate knowledge seems to be something else you possess little knowledge of...

Carlos Ponce

"buy the property" - With all the "improvements" (like the enhanced wall) it will be an extremely high price. You seem to be the one who lacks real estate knowledge.

Jarvis Buckley

The new Muslim congresswoman , that spewed that ignorant , foul, uneducated, immoral rant , uses the most foul language of any one I've ever heard, should be embarrassed &
ashamed. But unfortunately she's probably not. Buckle up. The last surge of the attempt to destroy our country is on its way.

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