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Steve Fouga

Damn! I had no idea public schools donated to Democrats! In Texas that's a big-time losing proposition, but it makes me feel a lot better about our public schools. Not that I'm a Democrat, I just like to see somebody trying to even out the influence of big business and the NRA.

Mr. Miller's salient premise is wrong and laughable. Liberals, like the rest of us, want gun laws that DO work. I could list several that would work, but most of you wouldn't like them. I wouldn't like them either, but they'd work. [cool]

Carlos Ponce

" I had no idea public schools donated to Democrats!"
Many Texas public school teachers are members of TSTA-NEA. Their dues go to a PAC that supports Democratic candidates even though one third of NEA members are Republican. NEA was the eleventh largest contributor in 2016 donating $29,426,584 to Democrats. That's even more than the AFL-CIO and a heck of a lot more than the NRA. But the AFT (American Federation of teachers) is number 9 on the list giving $33,580,880 to Democrats. That's even more than number 13 George Soros. NRA isn't even on the list.
I belonged to ATPE, no monetary support of either party's candidates although we were informed of issues involving education.

Steve Fouga

That doesn't sound like public schools donating to Democrats, it sounds like teachers donating. Are there any teachers' organizations that donate to Republican candidates? The few teachers I know tend to be conservative, so it seems strange they would join an organization that contributes exclusively to Democrats.

Paula Flinn

Many teachers don't belong to unions. I joined one when I was teaching full-time.

Carlos Ponce

Texas is a Right to Work State. There is a difference between a professional teacher's organization like ATPE and a teacher's union like AFT. I consider TSTA-NEA a union although they consider themselves a professional organization. Most teachers join one of these just for the liability coverage and lawyer availability, not for the political aspects.

PD Hyatt

If we do not enforce the laws that we have already, why add others? I would love to see what law could ever stop a premeditated murderer from carrying out what they intend to do....BTW, what most of you progressives do not understand and probably will never understand is that without the 2nd Amendment NONE of our other Amendments are secure.... Our Founding Father put that into our Constitution for a reason and it was not just to go hunting.... Of course to know that you would have to know your "real" history of our nation....

Steve Fouga

I agree that enforcing gun laws we already have would be a great idea. In my opinion the best thing Donald Trump has done as president is to direct our law-enforcement agencies to enforce immigration laws. It has worked, it required no legislative action, and there was already a budget to do it.

Gary Miller

PD! Progressives know how important the Second Amendment is. That's why they want to erase it. If they could erase it all the other Bill Of Rights would be in danger.

Gary Miller

Steve! Laws that would stop mass shootings would not be gun laws. To stop mass shootings a law that identified mental illness and segregated the mentally ill in safe places would be needed. Liberals focus on guns but guns don't plan or carry out mass shootings.

Steve Fouga

I agree that the single most useful "gun law" would be one that kept guns out of the hands of mentally unstable people.

Carlos Ponce

By Liberal thinking, the school shooting in Parkland should NEVER have taken place. Nikolas Cruz entered a "gun free zone" with a firearm! By their way of thinking he never would enter the school armed because there is a law in place.

Steve Fouga

No liberal with any sense thinks that.

Martin Connor

Long ago I believed "Open Carry" etc.. was going to bring out a Wild Wild West environment. Over the years I have come to realize how very wrong i was. Nothing will ever stop the Bad Guys from obtaining guns or weapons to try to harm the innocent. I for one, now fully support any law that allows a sane, law abiding, and good citizen/neighbor to rightfully carry a firearm on their person anywhere in public. And these "Gun Free" zones need to be a thing of the past. It's ridiculous to think any one wanting to do harm was going to stop and say to themselves" Well Heck!! I cant go in there" because there is a sign forbidding. I think the NRA will be the only ones to help resolve this issue. And I by no means have been a fan of them in the past.

Steve Fouga

Martin says: "I for one, now fully support any law that allows a sane, law abiding, and good citizen/neighbor to rightfully carry a firearm on their person anywhere in public."

I fully agree. I wish it were easier and quicker to get a TX LTC.

Martin says: "And these "Gun Free" zones need to be a thing of the past."

I agree with this, too.

Martin also says: "I think the NRA will be the only ones to help resolve this issue."

Well, I hope they help rather than hinder. It could also very well take congressional action and the help of the White House.

Carlos Ponce

2018: "The 19-year-old who is accused of killing 17 people and injuring dozens more when he opened fire on a South Florida high school Wednesday afternoon told investigators that he heard voices in his head, giving him instructions on what to do to conduct the attack, law enforcement sources told ABC News. The voices were described as "demons" by law enforcement sources."

April 1977: (UPI) "A couple of months ago I made a plan to kill the principal, Mr. Tripp, at Whitharrel High School. I made a plan to take a gun [.32 caliber revolver] and kill the principal."
Santa Fe New Mexican May 24, 1978 page B7

"Plains, Texas (AP) Final arguments were scheduled to begin today in the murder trial of an 18-year-old man who says the devil ordered him to kill his his high school principal. Ricardo Lopez took the stand to testify in his defense Thursday and said, 'The devil was not satisfied with my sacrifice and instructed me to take a human life.' The defendant's mother, Mrs. Florencia Lopez, testified Wednesday that her son was obsessed with 'evil spirits'. "
Big Spring Herald May 26, 1978 page 7-A

Ricardo Lopez was found guilty of murder, sentenced to life imprisonment. His plea of insanity was reinforced by psychiatrists who said he had acute schizophrenia. But it was dismissed by the prosecution saying if he were schizophrenic he would have picked a random target and not been plotting for two months.
Brownsville Herald May 28, 1978 page 7A

The gun is not an issue here. Mental illness or demonic influence?

Steve Fouga

A person who decides to kill people without a motive of self-defense or self-enrichment is mentally ill, by my definition. So yes, laws that provide mental-health help and keep guns out of those people's hands would save lives. So would simply enforcing existing laws.

Another approach would be to limit access to soft targets through the use of technology and armed security. Another would be to eliminate the whole concept of soft targets. Yet another approach would be to limit their ability to do damage by limiting the effectiveness of their weapons... For some reason the latter approach is most popular with liberals and the only approach conservatives will not consider.

In these cases of mass killings, mental illness is ALWAYS the issue. And so is the gun.

Carlos Ponce

July 26, 1764 - Four Delaware Indians attacked a school in Pennsylvania, shooting to death teacher Enoch Brown but tomahawking 9 children to death. The Delaware chief rebuked them as cowards for attacking children. The same group had attacked and killed pregnant Susan King Cunningham, scalping her and cutting the baby out of her. Only one was killed with a firearm.
May 18, 1927 - School Board member Andrew Kehoe set off a bomb in Bath Township Michigan killing 38 children and 6 adults, injuring 58 others.
The Poe Elementary School bombing was a school bombing that occurred at Poe Elementary School in Boulevard Oaks, Houston, Texas, United States on September 15, 1959. Six people, including the perpetrator and his own son, were killed.
I remember my school days (as a student and a teacher) when we were sent to the stadium because of a "bomb threat" - never a shooter on campus.

Micheal Byrd

Allow schools the same level of protection politicians and celeberties now have and mass shootings will most likely become far and few between.

Steve Fouga

It's easily possible to find cases of people using something other than a gun to kill. But this thread isn't about those cases, it's about guns and mass shootings.

Here's a hypothetical for those who think the gun itself is unimportant: A shooter walks into your child's classroom carrying a gun. There are 20 students and a teacher in the room. Would you rather his gun held 30 rounds, or 5?

Brian Tamney

Ok Steve here's a question for you, three armed punks break into your house. Would you rather YOUR gun hold 30 eds or 5?

Steve Fouga

You answer my question and I'll gladly answer yours. You're not willing to, are you? I am. [cool]

Carlos Ponce

"But this thread isn't about those cases, it's about guns and mass shootings."
It's about how more gun laws will have no effect on killings at schools. Remove the gun, have you really solved the problem? Not really. A person hell bent on killing at school will find a way. Limiting the number of bullets, the culprit can reload in a soft target area, even up to 30 rounds. Adam Lanza's gun jammed and he reloaded at Sandy Hook. He killed 20.

Steve Fouga

5 or 30, Carlos. In a classroom. Simple question. Willing to answer? [whistling]

Carlos Ponce

Steve, with reloading it doesn't make a difference. I thought I made that plain in my post.

Steve Fouga

Come on, Carlos, you made it anything but plain. Capacity makes a big difference. That's why Brian asked the question he did, above. Reload after 5 shots or 30? Which do YOU think is easier, quicker, more efficient? 30 round magazines exist because they make it easier for a person to use their ammo efficiently. 30 is better than 20. 20 is better than 10. And so on. Guns used to hold 1 cartridge, then repeaters were invented so the user didn't have to reload as often. Then detachable magazines were made so shooters could conveniently carry ammo ready to reload and fire. Then higher-capacity magazines came along because they allowed the user to shoot more and reload less.

Okay, you don't believe 5 shots vs 30 makes a difference? Then I'll up the ante: no detachable magazines allowed. Think that would make a difference?

To be clear, Carlos, I'm not saying I advocate any of this. I'm saying it would help. If I were assigned the task of reducing mass shootings, the first 2 things I would address are mental health and ammunition capacity.

Carlos Ponce

Plain as the nose on your face.
If you don't get it - that sounds like a personal problem.

Carlos Ponce

Let's say you ban the sale of 30 round magazines. Despite its availability in clandestine markets one can also be made using a 3-D printer.
"3D-printed 30-round AR magazine brings us ever closer to a fully 3D-printed gun"
Not perfected - yet.

Emile Pope

Then i guess you oppose drug laws, laws against murder, rape and robbery. Since according to your flawed logic all laws are useless since criminals will violate them.

Carlos Ponce

"Since according to your flawed logic all laws are useless since criminals will violate them. "
Not flawed logic since there are alternatives to the proposedgun laws that will address the ACTUAL PROBLEM. Pursuing new gun laws are just a waste of time. Those in place are adequate if you follow the LETTER OF THE LAW.
Nikolas Cruz should never have been able to purchase his AR-15 if the laws were properly implemented, if the school had reported his mental instability, if the police added his name to their data base after being called to his house FORTY-FIVE TIMES!!!!!!!!
Ineptness from the school district. Ineptness from the police department. Those are REAL problems that can be addressed.
You have a superintendent praised by the Obama administration and rewarded with MILLIONS in grant money for reporting fewer problems AKA PROMISE PROJECT. You have a Liberal sheriff out to make a name for himself. You have an inept security guard-deputy who orders the others to keep out of the building.

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