In response to the commentary by Bob Fields ("Trump's chronic lying is no small problem," The Daily News, Sept. 11): Fields is a braggart when he said in his commentary "The Daily News has published several commentaries of mine, which are super critical of President Trump."

He uses absolutely zero facts or data to support his statement that 12,000 lies have been told by Trump. Who are these unidentified "fact-checkers" who are keeping score? And then to say that "he (Trump) probably lies ... every time he opens his mouth ... " is pure speculation based on no tangible examples or facts.

He follows up with questions rooted in "Did Trump lie..." What happened to Fields' fact-checkers?

He muses: does Trump "lie all the time...," "most of our allies don't trust (Trump)," — prove it. He doesn't bother to identify a single real ally that doesn't trust Trump.

I think my point is clear by now, but it's extremely disappointing to me that The Daily News would publish this kind of propaganda (and that's what it is) from an known individual who clearly has an agenda, and lacks the cognitive ability to see his obvious omissions of facts and data to support his diatribe. I thought editors at the paper would see the obvious ongoing bias and keep this baseless garbage from print.

Michael Speck

Friendswood

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(82) comments

Carlos Ponce

The alleged 12,000 lies were discussed on a program last night. Most of the alleged lies are opinions offered by Trump. Opinions are opinions and cannot be classified as true or false. Many are hyperbole. Use of hyperbole was common in Obama's speeches but rarely called lies. Trump also rounds off numbers which is acceptable. A few are gaffes. Said by someone else they would be considered as such, not lies. Consider the source of the allegation - The Washington Post - not really a bastion of truth. When WAPO says the President has told 12,000 lies - that's a lie. WAP should give itself 5 Pinocchios.

Paula Flinn

Lies, lies, lies, like last night when Trump promised New Mexicans that the government was going to spend “trillions” in their state. Meanwhile, Trump is “stealing” money from the military to fund his wall.

Trump is the RINO: ran up a record deficit, pretended to be conservative with spending, played golf all the time, took his whole family (grown children) with him on vacations, made money by having foreign dignitaries stay at his hotels and businesses, and had our military stay at his golf club when they were not given enough of a stipend to eat there.

Carlos Ponce

"Meanwhile, Trump is 'stealing' money from the military to fund his wall." Paula puts "stealing" in quotes because it is not really "stealing". Congress gave the president the authority to use these funds. The law is 10 USC 284. His use of those funds was upheld by the the Supreme Court in July 2019.

"Trump is the RINO: ran up a record deficit...." No "record", Paula. Obama holds that record. But like President Reagan he has to increase military spending after years of neglect. Congress, specifically the House, ran up the deficit. Trump signed the appropriations bill to prevent a government shutdown.

"made money by having foreign dignitaries stay at his hotels and businesses, and had our military stay at his golf club when they were not given enough of a stipend to eat there." Foreign dignitaries CHOOSE to stay at his hotel because they're better and more convenient in location. Does Paula want Congress to pass a law stating that foreign dignitaries CANNOT stay at a Trump hotel? Lawsuits citing the Emolument clause have been dismissed by courts.As far as military use of Trump facilities and stipends that decision was made by military brass starting in 2015 - that's two years before Trump took office.

Brian Allen

Don't know where your "alternative facts" about the deficit are coming from, but you are dead wrong. Your hatred for Hillary and every democrat has obviously given you brain damage. Here is a link on Fox for you. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/deficits-exploding-and-neither-party-seems-to-care

Trump can't admit he has ever been wrong about anything and you are in that class also. Just last week you were defending him on sharpie-gate. The sad thing is your common-sense never kicked in and allowed you to say "your on your own on this crazy chit". Let's sit back and see how his latest questionable comment about how Gen. Mattis told him that the US military was out of ammo in 2016 plays out. A big lie that he is blaming on fake news in last couple of days is how he never said he would meet with Iran without pre-conditions, but there is plenty video of him saying in weeks prior that he would meet with Iran without pre-conditions. You can spin it any way you want. The man lies and there is video proof, plain and simple. If you can't admit that, then you have NO CREDIBILITY!!!!!!

Emile Pope

Until the last paragraph I thought he was writing about Bob Fields...

Bailey Jones

There are several fact checking sites on line. And you need not worry whether they are partisan. They present what the president said, in context, and the facts that dispute what he said and where the facts came from. If you possess reason and consciousness you can read his words and research the facts, and know for yourself. At least then you'll know what it is you're defending.

Don Schlessinger

I'm wondering which "fact checkers" to use, Socialist or Republican? I think people should be aware the difference between disinformation and misinformation and possible sources of both. Of course that's the challenge we all have.

Bailey Jones

It doesn't matter - facts aren't partisan. If you're capable of rational thought you're capable of checking facts. Facts are knowable things. If someone says "windmills cause cancer", it's not hard to discover that's a lie. If someone says "Houstonians went out in their boats to watch Hurricane Harvey" - it's not hard to discover that's a lie. If someone says "Trump gave the military their first raises in 10 years" - it's not hard to discover that's a lie. If someone says "Chicago has the toughest guns laws in America" - it's not hard to discover that's a lie. If someone says "China pays import tariffs" - it's not hard to discover that's a lie. Now, if your fact checking site is only checking "socialists" - then maybe you need to look elsewhere.

Carlos Ponce

"facts aren't partisan" But their interpretation is. The AP fact checks are very partisan - towards the Left. Calvin Woodward, Hope Yen and Seth Borenstein are very partisan and selective of their 'facts". It's not trustworthy.

Gary Scoggin

“Socialist” is the opposite of “Republican “? You should sue whatever high school you went to for malpractice.

Maris Helfrich

The DAILY NEWS is doing a good job of representing opinions from all sides. If this writer calls what Trump does "propaganda", he fails to see what most of the country sees, namely, an incompetent, corrupt administration with an "entertainer" at the helm!

Reputable polls show that the majority of Americans do not support Trump's policies and behavior as President. Maris P. Helfrich

Dalton Logan

The same reputable polls that showed Clinton in a landslide.[wink]

Jarvis Buckley

Never going to convince socialists Trump is great for America.

Kinda like the coastal spine. Never gonna happen. Carlos keeps trying to his credit.

Jim Forsythe

Call them what you want, these are a few of Trumps misguided statements.

Says North Korea has "agreed to denuclearization." April 22nd, 2018

The immigration visa lottery "randomly hands out green cards without any regard for skill, merit, or the safety of American people." January 30th, 2018

We have signed more legislation than anybody. We broke the record of Harry Truman." December 29th, 2017

"We're the highest developed nation taxed in the world." October 18th, 2017

"Bob Corker gave us the Iran Deal." October 12th, 2017

says John Podesta "refused to give the DNC server to the FBI and the CIA. Disgraceful!" July 11th, 2017

When you look for a job, you can't find it and you give up. You are now considered statistically employed." April 4th, 2017

"Look at what’s happening last night in Sweden. Sweden, who would believe this? Sweden. They took in large numbers. They’re having problems like they never thought possible." February 19th, 2017

"The murder rate in our country is the highest it’s been in 47 years." February 8th, 2017

"Beyonce and Jay Z, I like them, I like them ... I get bigger crowds than they do. It's true. I get far bigger crowds." , November 7th, 2016

Don Schlessinger

Your source, Socialist or Republican?,

Jim Forsythe

Don, this is just one taken from a Trump tweet.

Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump

Sleepy Eyes Chuck Todd of Fake News NBC just stated that we have given up so much in our negotiations with North Korea, and they have given up nothing. Wow, we haven’t given up anything & they have agreed to denuclearization (so great for World), site closure, & no more testing! : Apr 22, 2018

Carlos Ponce

Notice Jim rarely cites the source of his "lists". Why? They are usually Leftist and unreliable. Jim if you really believe your list is to be believed then cite the source.

Carlos Ponce

Take a look at what Jim calls misguided Trump statements:

Says North Korea has "agreed to denuclearization." April 22nd, 2018 That's true. North Korean leader Kim Jong-un and South Korean President Moon Jae-in both committed to a "common goal of ... a nuclear-free Korea peninsula."

https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20180427013900315

Jim Forsythe

Kim Jong-un and South Korean President Moon Jae-in both committed to a "common goal of ... a nuclear-free Korea peninsula." is not the same as" they have agreed to denuclearization (so great for World), site closure, & no more testing! :" they have agreed to denuclearization (so great for World), site closure, & no more testing! : If you think they are the same, good for you .

Carlos Ponce

Not the same to Jim but to the rest of the world.

Jim Forsythe

You are saying they have agreed to denuclearization. If you think this is true, what is the schedule of getting rid of all North Korea's nuclear weapons? What are the term's? If this is true why are they still firing off missiles?

Carlos Ponce

North Korean leader Kim Jong-un and South Korean President Moon Jae-in both committed to a "common goal of ... a nuclear-free Korea peninsula."

Jim Forsythe

A goal is different then what Trump said. " agreed to denuclearization" This means it is in place and not we are working on it,

Carlos Ponce

You are reading too much into the statement.

Jim Forsythe

You mean the truth!

Jim Forsythe

A few more

Tariffs are "paid for mostly by China, by the way, not by us." May 14th, 2019

The United Kingdom is "our largest (trading) partner." June 5th, 2019

U.S. farmers are receiving $16 billion "out of the tariffs that we’ve gotten from China." August 2nd, 2019

Wow, Report Just Out! Google manipulated from 2.6 million to 16 million votes for Hillary Clinton in 2016 Election!" , August 19th, 2019

58,000 non-citizens voted in Texas, with 95,000 non-citizens registered to vote." January 28th, 2019

"Many presidents don’t get the chance to put a Supreme Court justice on." October 25th, 2018

Says 3,000 people "did not die" in two hurricanes that hit Puerto Rico. That death toll estimate was "done by Democrats." September 18th, 2018

U.S. Steel just announced that they are building six new steel mills." August 2nd, 2018

"Wow, highest Poll Numbers in the history of the Republican Party. That includes Honest Abe Lincoln and Ronald Reagan."

July 30th, 2018

Don Schlessinger

Your source, Socialist or Republican?,

Jim Forsythe

Don which one's did he not say? It has nothing to do with Socialist or Republican.

Don Schlessinger

Jim, I hope you're aware that there are "fact checkers" on both sides of the isle. I'm pretty sure the people who's facts you believe are Socialists (democrats). And I'm sure the people who's facts I believe are Conservative (Republicans). There are no independently minded "fact checkers". Unfortunately that's the way it is.

Bailey Jones

You do know there are more choices on the menu than "Socialist or Republican", right? Or maybe you don't. But why rely on either? If you disagree with ANY of Jim's examples, the facts that can prove he's wrong are out there and easily accessible. Use your brain. Enlighten us.

Don Schlessinger

Please point me to a couple of "independent" sources you rely on.

Bailey Jones

"Please point me to a couple of "independent" sources you rely on."



Sure - if I want to disprove a Trump statement about crime, I'll use the FBI's crime statistics. If I want to disprove a Trump statement about the economy, I'll use the Bureau of Economic Analysis or the Bureau of Labor Statistics. If I want to disprove one of Trump's ridiculous scientific claims, like "windmills cause cancer" , I have the Centers for Disease Control. If I want to disprove a Trump statement about the strength of the dollar, I have the US Dollar Index - available from any investing site. If I want to show that the statement "China is paying for import tariffs" is a lie, I only need to call up my high school level understanding of what a tariff is. It really depends on what lie he's telling at the moment.

Jim Forsythe

Donald Trump said the UK is America’s largest trading partner. It ranks 5th

"We are your largest partner," Trump said June 4. "You’re our largest partner. A lot of people don’t know that. I was surprised. I made that statement yesterday, and a lot of people said, ‘Gee, I didn’t know that.’ But that’s the way it is." U.S. trade data shows that in combined trade — the sum of exports and imports for goods and services — the United Kingdom ranks fifth, behind China, Canada, Mexico and Japan.

Carlos Ponce

From Politifact.com: "Trump was right that the United States is Britain’s biggest trade partner, according to British government data."

Mike Zeller

Carlos is wrong again as usual. He likes to cherry pick and give half the story. Trump was talking to Theresa May PRIME MINISTER OF UNITED KINGDOM. Jim you are correct, once again.

Jim Forsythe

Since you used Politifact.com: this is what they said about UK and trade partners.

"The U.K. is not our largest trading partner, whether measured by U.S. bilateral imports from the U.K., exports to the U.K., or the sum of the two," Bergstrand said. "It is a large partner, but not nearly among the largest."https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/jun/05/donald-trump/donald-trump-said-uk-americas-largest-trading-part/

Believe what you want, but Trump was talking about the USA. Why are you using British government data, when you can use USA government data?

Jim Forsythe

Thanks, and you are right,"He likes to cherry pick and give half the story"

Carlos Ponce

From Politifact.com: "Trump was right that the United States is Britain’s biggest trade partner, according to British government data." Is all I posted. No comment from me attached to it.

Mike Zeller

Why did you not post the next sentence? "But he’s VERY WRONG that the United Kingdom is America’s largest trading partner." Britain wasn't even in the conversation.



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/jun/05/donald-trump/donald-trump-said-uk-americas-largest-trading-part/

Mike Zeller

Carlos, Do Not ever post anything about my personal life again. [censored]

Carlos Ponce

Mike Zeller posted Sep 16, 2019 9:32am "-"Carlos, you are flat out LYING. Now I know why your an ex-Teacher." So you can post about me but I cannot post about you?

Emile Pope

Actually you volunteered that information and refer to it frequently when you're trying to make the case that your falsehoods have some scientific reasoning when they don't...

Carlos Ponce

And what I posted is public record round in the December 22,1970 Galveston Daily News.


Mike Zeller

You've done this before, and I let it slide, but you will not be posting personal info about me anymore. End of story!

Carlos Ponce

And what I posted is public record round in the December 22,1970 Galveston Daily News.

Carlos Ponce

But if Mike does not respond to my posts with snide remarks there's no need to post items of public record. Is this the end of the story? It's up to you.

Mike Zeller

To "The Daily News" Thank You!

Craig Mason

Mexico is going to pay for the wall. That is lie #1

Jim Forsythe

Craig, FYI--- September 17, 2019 The Defense Department has decided not to proceed with three border wall projects in California and Arizona, citing "insufficient contract savings," according to a court filing.

Emile Pope

Apparently Mexico’s check bounced...

Charles Douglas

The trophy for the most arrogant, obnoxious statement tonight goes to none other than............

Carlos Ponce

If you have not noticed, Emile, Mexico is saving us tons of money by enforcing their own southern borders and holding the "immigrants" on their side pending a hearing. Even with that help we still need the wall/fence/barricade since those who are detained in Mexico are lured by talk of passage from Coyotes as a distraction for human and drug smuggling operations. But without Mexico's help we'd be spending billions more. Thank you Mexico! (for now that is).

Jim Forsythe

Trump campaign position paper, 2015: Mexico must pay for the wall and, until they do, the United States will, among other things: impound all remittance payments derived from illegal wages; increase fees on all temporary visas issued to Mexican CEOs and diplomats (and if necessary cancel them); increase fees on all border crossing cards – of which we issue about 1 million to Mexican nationals each year (a major source of visa overstays); increase fees on all NAFTA worker visas from Mexico (another major source of overstays); and increase fees at ports of entry to the United States from Mexico [Tariffs and foreign aid cuts are also options].

Gary Miller

If Trump has made 12,000 lies in three years I hope he tells 24,000 more before leaving office in 2025. The number claimed by the liberal "fact" checkers are proof of how succesful he has been M.A.G.A.

Miceal O'Laochdha

What is all this hand-wringing about LIES? The train is gone. There are no lies. There is no TRUTH. There remain only STATEMENTS, which change daily or hourly as need to achieve the desired effect. The current president did not invent or create this; politicians have been marching us down this road for many years. The Donald just got the memo sooner and with greater clarity than most career politicians since he had no particular need for the illusion of truth or cloak of morality in his previous life.

David Hardee

The amount of exposure to an open mike that Trump permits and his candid and rebuttal remarks gives a full impression of his person. This is i contradiction to the infrequent and scripted of most Presidents. Trump is not a politician! Trump is an advocate for America. Rejecting the agreements and practices that have sucked wealth and prestige out of America has strengthened the economy. The deficit spending is by Congress.

And best effect is the exposure of the putrid people in the FBI that were in collusion with the Obama and Clintons. These were the other swamp creatures are turning into cannibals devouring each other. The best is yet to come. Hopefully Trump will have another term to continue irritation and exposure of the progressive liberal Democratic creatures. Amd MAGA!

Bailey Jones

I've always thought that "Make America Great Again" was just the sort of meaningless drivel that you might see on a car commercial. So I'm curious, since you clearly believe it actually means something - when was this era of American greatness, exactly? Are we talking the 80s? 50s? 20s? Naughts? And what, specifically, was so great about it?

Carlos Ponce

There was no individual era of greatness, Bailey. There were events and people that made America great. I would include going into space and landing on the moon, eliminating slavery in this country, inventions and their inventors such as the Wright Brothers, Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell, the elimination of certain diseases such as polio, connecting coast-to-coast with rail, highways then planes, etc., etc., etc. What events and people does Bailey Jones think made America great? Where did you get the idea that Trump meant just one era or decade since he never said that?

Jim Forsythe

The slogan was first made popular in politics when it was used by Ronald Reagan in his 1980 presidential campaign.

"Make America Great Again" Has to mean that we stopped being great! Exactly when was that we were no longer great.

We have medical breakthroughs all the time, have had space advances all along, better and better computers and so forth. Along with the good, we are going to have times that we have problems.

MEGA is just another political slogan that may have another come back years from now. Will this mean that we are not great now, it is a possible.

Bailey Jones

"again" implies past, if I understand my English correctly. But if you're suggesting that MAGA is just a slogan without any specific meaning, I'm fine with that.

Carlos Ponce

"without any specific meaning, I'm fine with that." Like "Hope and Change" it means whatever the intended audience thinks it means. That''s why I asked you what you think it means. Everyone has a concept of what made and makes America great. One of your Democratic presidential candidates thinks it means a return to segregation. Really? Segregation is not in my concept of what made America great nor in the the minds of most Americans. But it does in hers. Donald Trump does not.

Charles Douglas

I wonder if you sir ever fought in the military on behalf of this country? You seem like you are well educated so that is not the problem. There is something I sense about your constant berating of America that tells me you have been hurt at sometime in you life to make you hate America as you seem to. Would you rather be in Cuba, or down south? China? Maybe Venezuela? Hey I'm African-American, who suffered through many insults and discriminations in my life, but this country has not ever did a thing to me! I want you to know that humans are born inherently selfish, and flawed of character! Good character, integrity and compassion for a neighbor, are learned behaviors! So then who an individual associates with or hang-out with, will influence their outlook on life in general! A baby is not born to hate, he is taught to hate! I was not born knowing how to speak English! I was raised around individuals who spoke English. I'm still trying to figure you out Mr. Jones, and I will get it .....sooner or later. Much love.

Bailey Jones

I don't believe I've ever berated America, Charles. I constantly berate conservative ideologues, and DJ Trump in particular, but that's not America. I'm a progressive - someone who believes that the purpose of humanity is to make the world a better place. That means being honest about our failures and striving to make things better. A philosophy that cannot admit its error is sterile, nothing can come of it. Growth only comes from dissatisfaction.

I've never served in the military, although I did spend 20 years designing electronics for military intelligence. I gave it up after the start of the second Iraq war. Too much blood on my hands.

Carlos Ponce

And I'm a Conservative - someone who believes that the purpose of humanity is to make the world a better place. Progressive ideals make people dependent on the government. No room for individuality - just group think.

Bailey Jones

conservatism /kənˈsərvədizəm/ noun

commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation.



progressivism /prəˈɡresəˌvizəm/ noun

support for or advocacy of social reform.



One of these is not like the other.

Carlos Ponce

Vive la différence !

Progressivism in this country has taken on more characteristics than the definition you provide.

Emile Pope

And the award for the most ridiculous statement made today goes to...

Carlos Ponce

Emile, you're the champion in that category!

Jarvis Buckley

One thing I can say about Jim. He is knowledgeable from the left liberal point of view. He has stayed the course for the years I have followed his comments. I agree with about

half of his comments . But I know he believes very deeply in his leftist point of view.

After President Trump gets re-elected perhaps Jim will give him a break on his second term. I hope so.

Jim Forsythe

Jarvis, thank you for the kind words.

Jim Forsythe

Jarvis, my wife and I discussed about voting for Trump in 2016. Why we did not, no political experience, the way he runs his life, the way he runs his business, his putting down women and others, his talking in third person, he is not able to say he is wrong and other reasons. He has not done anything to change our minds, and has proven too us that the reasons we had for not voting for him were right.

Jarvis in the same vain, will you be voting against Trump?

As far as giving him a break, it not going to happen, because he has given me any reason to think he will change. If he is reelected again, he will be a lame duck, that will not have any reason not do anything he wants. One last thought, to me we are worse off in China, North Korea, Iran than before.

You may not agree of any of the above, and that is what is great about the USA.

Charles Douglas

Mr. Jones> I personally respect your progressive position. I can see by your passionate explanation earlier that your feelings concerning it are legitimate, even though I disagree with progressive views for the most part. I say that after having been a progressive for many years.

Here is one of the reasons I changed my position and my views:



"The graveyard is the richest place on earth, because it is here that you will find all the hopes and dreams that were never fulfilled, the books that were never written, the songs that were never sung, the inventions that were never shared, the cures that were never discovered, all because someone was too afraid to take that first step, keep with the problem, or determined to carry out their dream."

by Les Brown

See my theory is, if an individual is dependent on the government instead of self in life, it will inhibit them from exploiting the full range and distance their abilities, talents, and potential will carry them to. Everyone born of woman has a calling, gift(s), and a spiritual destination. Sad to say sir, not all will discover what those things are, nor use them to their advantage for this lives. One big reason for that is fear of self reliance and independent thinking!

Bailey Jones

I don't know on any human being who isn't dependent on the government, Charles. Did you use a road today? Drink water? Go to the bank? Employ any weights and measures? Not get murdered by roving gangs of white hooded klansmen?

I think what you're getting at is the idea that we should all be free to explore and exploit our talents and potentials. That's exactly the progressive dream. You can't do that if you're segregated to third rate schools. Or if you're forbidden to live in a certain neighborhood or engage in a certain occupation because of your race or sex. You can't do that if you can't get financing for your business, or insurance for your home, or the healthcare it takes to keep you or your loved ones alive.

I believe in the value of work - I've worked since I was 12. I work a regular job with two businesses I've started on the side. I believe labor has value - both to the worker and to the employer - so I believe in laws that protect workers against exploitation. I've had a great education - so I believe a great education should be available to everyone. I've never been discriminated against for any reason - so I believe that no one should be discriminated against, for any reason.

Conservatism has traditionally opposed the things I believe in - the right of every American to vote, the right of every American to great and affordable schools, the right of every American to be paid his/her worth for his/her labor, the right of every American to work at whatever occupation they have a calling for, the right of every American to live in any neighborhood they choose, the right to be healthy, the right to a dignified old age. That's my progressivism. The descriptions of progressives that I see here in these pages - I don't know what that is, or anyone who proposes it.

Charles Douglas

Mr. Jones> You listed a bunch of good stuff there! However I hope you are not saying that all of what you listed are exclusively the attitudes, beliefs, and ideologies of Progressives only. I believe in a great education, even though I was educated in times of poverty and segregation. I believe in great jobs, but I BELIEVE one should use what he has and work hard to ascend to a successful career or occupation. I did, and was blessed enough to retire from TWO CAREERS! I could not have accomplished that by holding my palms toward the sky crying about the past! There are other elements here I could speak of but ....I'll let you off the hook for now. Lol Enjoyed the interaction with you! Much love.

Carlos Ponce

"Conservatism has traditionally opposed the things I believe in..." The list you provide are things Conservatives are FOR. However, Progressives are for taking much more away from workers wages. Consider, the EFFECTIVE hourly wage AFTER TAXES. Republicans reduced that tax, NOT ONE Democrat voted for that that tax reduction. Democrats stress TAX ENVY as the basis for their rejection of the tax reduction. And with the promises of FREE things by Progressive presidential candidates expect taxes to go up. Do you deny it? "But they will only tax the rich!" BULLSTUFF!!!!!! That won't pay for all the "free" things.

Bailey Jones

Wow, Carlos - talk about revisionist history. Are you sure you want to do this dance?



Conservatives opposed the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

Conservatives opposed the Civil Rights Act.

Conservatives opposed the 19th Amendment.

Conservatives opposed the integration of public schools.

Conservatives opposed the integration of public colleges.

Conservatives opposed the integration of public accommodations.

Conservatives opposed the integration of lunch counters, theaters, court rooms, train cars, buses, even the State Fair of Texas (Negro Achievement Day, anyone?).

Conservatives opposed the labor movement, including the 8 hour work day, the 40 hour work week, overtime pay, paid sick leave, paid vacation, unemployment insurance, the right to collectively bargain, and the end of child labor.

Conservatives opposed social security.

Conservatives opposed Medicare.



In every case conservatives opposed these ideas because they were a departure from "traditional values". Now, of course, everybody loves them and they've become "traditional values", and worthy of conservative support.



But these are all progressive ideas. And you know all this - you're a history teacher. I've yet to figure out why you can't acknowledge it.

Carlos Ponce

"Conservatives opposed the Voting Rights Act of 1965." WRONG! The Final vote was 77-19- 4. Only 47 Democrats voted FOR. Where did the other 30 votes come from? Of the 19 Nays, 17 were from Democrat Senators.

"Conservatives opposed the Civil Rights Act." WRONG. The Final vote was 289 FOR, 126 AGAINST. Of the 289 FOR, 153 were Democrats, 136 Republican. Of the NAYS, 91 of the 126 were Democrat.

"Conservatives opposed the 19th Amendment." WRONG! Passed the House 304 to 89. Passed Senate after a Democrat Filibuster 56-25 Ayes were 37 Republicans and 19 Democrats.

"Conservatives opposed the integration of public schools, Conservatives opposed the integration of public colleges, Conservatives opposed the integration of public accommodations,etc" WRONG All had Conservative support. Bailey please look up facts before making such outstandingly ludicrous statements.

Charles Douglas

[thumbup]

Bailey Jones

Carlos, Carlos, Carlos - I never said anything about R's and D's, only progressives and conservatives. To equate the two, especially during the 60s when there were liberals and conservatives in both parties betrays a profound ignorance of American political history. The Democrats in the 60s contained liberals (think Kennedy) and conservatives (think Strom Thurmond or James Eastland) and the Republicans had progressives (think Nelson Rockefeller) as well as conservatives (think Barry Goldwater), and some - like LBJ who managed to be simultaneously progressive and racist. Please - pretend you're one of your students and do your homework. Next you'll be telling us that conservatives started the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley.

Carlos Ponce

"I never said anything about R's and D's, only progressives and conservatives." If you look at the political leanings of those who voted for the measures you mention you will find CONSERVATIVES. Look at who passed DOMA - Democrats including Bill Clinton who were FAR MORE TO THE RIGHT than the current "Progressive" Democrats. Or does Bailey consider the Defense of Marriage act "Progressive"? Check each Senator and Congressman out. You won't find many "Progressives" in either party.

Bailey Jones

Carlos, don't get me wrong - I think your admiration for the signature programs of FDR's New Deal and LBJ's Great Society is ... admirable. And if conservatives want to claim MLK, Eugene V. Debs and Susan B. Anthony as their own - well, I'll take progress in whatever form it comes these days.

Charles Douglas

Another sad point to support what Mr. Las Brown said in his most eloquent writing I used above is ......ABORTIONS have the same affect as the things Mr. Brown listed, concerning the riches of the graveyard on earth! Reason is simple! The unborn will NEVER have the opportunities to be producers, or dreamers in order to help the world!

Much Love!

Welcome to the discussion.

Keep it Clean. Please avoid obscene, vulgar, lewd, racist or sexually-oriented language.
PLEASE TURN OFF YOUR CAPS LOCK.
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