Confederate monuments

A statue honoring Confederate soldiers at the Galveston County Courthouse is named “Dignified Resignation.” A local group started a petition in 2015 to remove the statue.

Arguments for removing statues and other monuments to the Confederacy from at least some public places are strong; unassailable, in fact. Galveston County leaders must accept that and begin a process to deal with “Dignified Resignation,” which stands outside the old courthouse on 21st Street in Galveston.

The question is more complicated about monuments on the grounds of museums and university campuses, but on the grounds of a building housing governmental services it’s simple, obvious and supported by precedent.

Michael A. Smith: 409-683-5206; michael.smith@galvnews.com

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(97) comments

Samuel Collins III

National Trust for Historic Preservation Statement on Confederate Monuments | National Trust for Historic Preservation

https://savingplaces.org/press-center/media-resources/national-trust-statement-on-confederate-memorials#.XvE3va9Onqs

Samuel Collins III

Confederate Monuments—Frequently Asked Questions | National Trust for Historic Preservation

https://savingplaces.org/confederate-monuments-faqs#.XvIgwK9Onqs

Samuel Collins III

Heritage should not be confused with history. History seeks to convince by truth, and succumbs to falsehood. Heritage exaggerates and omits, candidly invents and frankly forgets, and thrives on ignorance and error...David Lowenthal

Bailey Jones

And there's more than one history and one heritage. The history and heritage of Europeans in America isn't the same as the history and heritage of blacks, or native Americans, or Mexican, or Chinese or Jewish or Japanese immigrants. When people speak of confederate monuments as being part of "our" heritage, they are ignoring the history and heritage of the rest of America.

Carlos Ponce

You sound like a Yankee.[scared]

Bailey Jones

AKA American.

Carlos Ponce

Not that definition.

Carlos Ponce

The decision of the fate of the statue should be left up to Galveston County voters. In the GCDN poll, a majority voted "They are part of our history. Leave them alone."

Samuel Collins III

Mr. Ponce there are times that the majority are wrong. For those that care about the monument they should consider moving it.

Carlos Ponce

What offends you about the statue, Sam?

Does it glorify slavery? No.

Does it glorify the Confederacy? No.

Does it demean anyone of any race? No.

Does it show a defeated man and Confederacy? Yes.

Some would like the statue moved to a museum. Where is the Galveston County Museum located? 722 Moody, Galveston. What else is at that site? The old Galveston County Courthouse. So it's already at a museum.

Samuel Collins III

Mr. Ponce what offends me? That is too elementary and too easy. That is just an attempt to deflect from the larger conversation about why so many of these statues were erected not just about one statue. I do believe that eventually this statue will be moved. Those that care about the statue could move it inside the museum and continue to tell the story about it. Additional plaques and statues can be placed in the Old Courthouse square, but that doesn't address the issue of the prominent position of this one statue. I am sure every civilization has cared about some marker, monument or statue that was eventually moved or destroyed. This one will be no different.

Carlos Ponce

If you don't want to tell me what about the statue offends you, that's fine but that is out of character for you. You address other statues but that's a red herring. I wanted to know what is offensive about this statue, not the others. But if you don't want to tell me, I respect that and will leave the issue disappointed.[crying]

Samuel Collins III

Mr. Ponce on several occasions I have said in the past that I think current resources should be used to educate rather than move statues. I don't care if the statue stays or goes, but I do believe there is enough support now to move it. The statue makes a public declaration that "Even when I lose I still win." There was much more pain and suffering inflicted in the courtroom than the battlefield. Statues are being moved and torn down all around the world. So for those that care about the ststue I suggest that they compromise and move it inside the museum to preserve it. I think if you educate the public eventually the masses will vote to move it. So whether today or a generation from now I still think it will be moved.

Carlos Ponce

The GCDN poll was not scientific but it found only 28.2% of respondents wanted to "Take them down and put them in museums as teaching tools." The majority wanted nothing done: "They are part of our history. Leave them alone."

Keith Gray

You can't identify what offends you, yet you want it removed on my tax dollar? That's weak and shows you have no merit.

David Hardee

Mr. Collins, thanks for the references. Read them and the august sounding named institution produces advice/opinion on this almost identical subject, but from different angles without any specific conclusions. I came away with little additional knowledge but it was somewhat worth the investment.

As to this editorial by Mr. Smith, it is ill-advised for publication at this time. With the sensitivities of the opposing factions in our society at high levels, the subject should be allowed a period for quiet reflection. Instead, the editor elects to prod the public’s wound with his highly biased conclusion. I don’t see how the headline “County must begin process to remove 'Dignified Resignation' leaves any doubt concluding there is a blazing bias in the editor's chair.

The public, if once was uncertain; about bias existing at the Daily News that uncertainty exists no longer.

What is disturbing is why the editor would do this at this time.

Has his need to give his opinion crowded out any empathy for the people it affects. Or is his self-serving desire to titillate the aroused public and increase The Daily News’s prestige and or circulation, his reason. Either of these reasons or any rational does not reflect a desire to be a good public servant (citizen).

Even more than freedom of speech (with certain exclusion) is the power of the editorial to project on to the public that which the editor deems as right.

Endorsing candidates hoping to affect election results, calling out against abuses of public trust, shaming immoralities, etc. the megaphone of the editor assists the public in righting the wrongs or making the best judgments.

But salting the open wound of the public, person or animal is cruel.

Samuel Collins III

Watch "The Truth About the Confederacy in the United States (FULL Version)" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/QOPGpE-sXh0

Rodney Dunklee

Mr. Smith was correct to call for its removal. The optics of this statue remaining are right down their with images of Donald Neely being led shackled through the streets. Time for some other image to be in that prominent place rather than one trying to paint the horrible wrong slavery and the antebellum lifestyle were in as good a light as possible. Has there been no other acts of valor worthy of our adoration in the public square than this? We are surely selling our values short if we think so. The statue must go.

Carlos Ponce

The statue represents a post-bellum defeated South, not slavery, not antebellum.

Donald Neely has nothing to do with this, You're stretching, Ronald.

"Time for some other image to be in that prominent place..." Nothing will be allowed to replace it after all this mess.

Emile Pope

Anytime someone tells you that it’s not the “right time”, always remember that to them the “right time” is never...

David Hardee

Never when something is cruel is always best. Is that your original thought or did you copy it from a deep thinker?

Emile Pope

MLK. "Letter from a Birminghan jail"

David Hardee

Good - He ranks as a very deep thinker. Wish his wisdom was available.

Emile Pope

It is. It’s just ignored as it was when he was alive...

Carlos Ponce

There those who want Dr. Martin Luther King's statue removed because of his womanizing. I think these should stay.

Emile Pope

Made up garbage...

Carlos Ponce

Plenty of evidence on the web.

https://heartlanddiaryusa.com/2019/05/26/will-they-tear-down-statues-of-martin-luther-king-jr-now/

"....a King biographer who is a member of the Democratic Socialist Party, has written of disturbing evidence that King not only engaged in extramarital sex, but also listened and encouraged as a colleague raped a female parishioner."

https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-tapes-allege-mlk-watched-rape-2019-5

https://www.change.org/p/who-wants-the-martin-luther-king-monument-removed-and-black-history-month-removed-remove-black-history-month-and-martin-luther-king-monument

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/10/25/confederate-removal-monument-retaliation/798533001/

Emile Pope

Who are these people who want MLK statues removed? More made up garbage. Dr. King wasn't a traitor who fought against his country or a representative of traitors.

Carlos Ponce

That's what I thought would happen. Give Emile proof of what I wrote and he refuses to look at the links provided.

Emile Pope

"Who are these people who want MLK statues removed?" Did you not understand the question?

Carlos Ponce

Let me repeat my answer.

https://heartlanddiaryusa.com/2019/05/26/will-they-tear-down-statues-of-martin-luther-king-jr-now/

"....a King biographer who is a member of the Democratic Socialist Party, has written of disturbing evidence that King not only engaged in extramarital sex, but also listened and encouraged as a colleague raped a female parishioner."

https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-tapes-allege-mlk-watched-rape-2019-5

https://www.change.org/p/who-wants-the-martin-luther-king-monument-removed-and-black-history-month-removed-remove-black-history-month-and-martin-luther-king-monument

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/10/25/confederate-removal-monument-retaliation/798533001/

Bailey Jones

If this was a statue of any of the traitorous leaders or "heroes" of the confederacy I'd agree. But it's not, it's a common soldier. The civil war destroyed the lives of thousands of Texas families. In my own case, my namesake, Bailey Washington Birdsong, died a stupid and useless death in a Natchitoches hospital tent, leaving behind a wife and 5 kids to fend for themselves. I have no problem with a monument that recognizes that suffering.

I take your comment about the purpose of the erection of confederate monuments during the age of Jim Crow as a symbol of black oppression, and I agree with the truth of it. However, we live in a world of dichotomies. There can be no freedom without oppression. There can be no emancipation without slavery.

This is why I would much prefer that the statue remain in place, and additional monuments be added, monuments which tell the rest of the story - the emancipation of the slaves, the jubilation of Juneteenth, the hope of Reconstruction, the betrayal of Jim Crow, the victories of the civil rights era, the failures of the "law and order" state, and a reminder that justice is every bit as much a journey as it is a destination. And it's a journey none of us have completed. That's what I would have everyone be reminded about when they visit the Galveston courthouse - the journey to justice isn't over, and we all need to stay on the path.

Emile Pope

A common soldier who fought to preserve slavery who deserves no more consideration than the other traitors who fought against the United States. To allow a symbol of oppression to remain and hope that someday, someway, in the sweet by and by other statues will be added to "balance" the message is absolutely ridiculous. Especially since the ones fighting to keep the statue will be equally fighting as hard to keep any others from being put up. Your solution is simply flowery language used as an excuse to do nothing...

Carlos Ponce

"A common soldier who fought to preserve slavery " Your premise is wrong. The newspapers reported those Yankees were on their way to kill and pillage. Many Texans had never seen a slave. They fought to protect their farms, their homes, their towns. There were some slaves in Galveston to work the wharves and serve those rich homes like Ashton Villa which was built using slave labor.

Brian Tamney

NO the common soldier fought for freedom from opression same as the soldiers in the revolution, there were many reasons the south seceded, slavery was but one and only at the state level, the average soldier didn tgive a dang about the slaves and were fighting for freedom from the north who was actively invading their ghomes.

Emile Pope

So the Germans who fought when their country was invaded by the allies should have a statue? The Italians? The Japanese? And comparing confederate soldiers to those in the revolution is laughable.

Carlos Ponce

Emile asks: "So the Germans who fought when their country was invaded by the allies should have a statue?" They have statues and memorials.

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2014/10/28/war-memorials-in-honor-of-german-soldiers-who-fought-in-two-world-wars/

And in Japan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine

And in Italy:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:War_memorials_in_Italy

Emile Pope

Where are their memorials to their enemies that fought against them and lost? Italy, Japan, and Germany are countries. The Confederacy was an uprising that no longer exists....

Carlos Ponce

"So the Germans who fought when their country was invaded by the allies should have a statue? The Italians?" I answered your question, Emile.

Brian Tamney

you say comparing the confederates to those whomfought in the revolution is laughable, and then you say the confederacy was an uprising that was defeated. so if the revolution had been lost wouldnt that of just been an uprsing that lost. and by the same token if the south had won wouldnt that be the same as the US winning its independence from Britian, think it through!

Emile Pope

"There can be no freedom without oppression. There can be no emancipation without slavery??? What kind of Orwellian garbage is this? The fact that you agree that the statue represents oppression and slavery is why it shouldn't be there in the first place...

Carlos Ponce

"The fact that you agree that the statue represents oppression and slavery" Not a fact, Emile.

Carlos Ponce

Removing statues will not be the end of their demands. This group of iconoclasts will move on to other things.

They'll rename things, cities, states, buildings, parks. When they tell you to rename Galveston Island, city, county. Will you give in? Galveston is named after Bernardo de Gálvez, former Spanish Governor of Louisiana who imported slaves.

And it's only the beginning.

Bailey Jones

I propose we change the name of the island to GypsyTown.

Carlos Ponce

No, change the island to Fertitta Island. He can dress up in a white suit saying, "Welcome to Fertitta Island!". Bailey will be next to him also dressed in white saying, "The plane, The plane!" The city? Fertittaville. "Wastin' away again in Fertittaville....".

Walter Dannenmaier

"Pirate Island" would be fine.

Carlos Ponce

Jean Lafiite called it Cameche. But Mexico already uses that name.

Carlos Ponce

Campeche.

Lisa Gray

Did the Jewish community in Europe want Auschwitz Birkenau concentration camp torn down? No, it is still standing and serves as a reminder for these atrocities to never happen again. I just cannot fathom that there are people who want to tear down history, because that is what it is. HISTORY.

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

George Orwell-1984

David Hardee

Lisa - this is so appropriate it makes one shudder of impending doom.

Only from the wisdom of a race and culture that on many occasions was the target of persecutions and attempted genocide can come guidance with the clarity of right direction to travel in the aftermath.

And the futurist author announced the inevitable results of a jover apathetic society being corraled by destroyers of personal integrity into group think and the demise of individualism.

Samuel Collins III

The National Trust for Historic Preservation addresses the issue about erasing history on the website link I provided. Unfortunately the history that many were taught in school was not complete and the false narrative of oral histories that many were told gives them a weak foundation to build solid arguments on. People don't know what they don't know and far worse is the fact they are unwilling to read to learn what they were never taught.

David Hardee

Samuel, yours is an appropriate claim, Yes, all history of human endeavors and conflict are inadequate. Revisions of history are also inadequate. Anywho claim to be able to purify history by the studious study is delusional. The recorded details are not enough to tell the story in totality. A lucid mind takes history as the message from the past recognizing that the proper use is to pass it into the process of grasping and gathering the data to be used in being aware that the future will present a similarity and that similarity requires thoughtful scrutiny before acting on it. Destroying or hiding history or images is a jaded mind act against humanity. Preservation of all the forms of history is worthy endeavor for posterity's advancement thru knowing and evaluating the past and present as help in deciding the future.

Bailey Jones

That's not really an apt analogy. The equivalent of Auschwitz in the US would be a slave market, such as the one preserved as a museum in Charleston. Or the remains of slave ships, such as the Clotilda, which will hopefully be preserved as a museum and learning center. And just as there are numerous holocaust museums, we have numerous civil rights museums to preserve the details of America's holocaust.

The German equivalent of our statues of confederate leaders and generals would be statues of Hitler, Rommel, Himmler, Göring, etc. I have a pretty good idea of what the Jewish community in Europe would think of those.

Carlos Ponce

Definition of Pardon -

To release (a person) from punishment or disfavor for wrongdoing or a fault: synonym: forgive.

To allow (an offense or fault) to pass without punishment or disfavor.

Were Hitler, Rommel, Himmler, Göring, etc. pardoned? No.

Were those who served the Confederacy depicted on statues pardoned? Yes.

Bailey Jones

German soldiers did not require a pardon because they were enemy combatants. Confederate soldiers did require a pardon because the civil war was an act of treason. Thanks for finally acknowledging that.

Interestingly, some German soldiers have been pardoned by post-Nazi German governments - specifically those who were imprisoned by Hitler for actions against the Third Reich (aka treason).

German leadership was tried in Nuremberg - not for being enemy combatants, but for their crimes against humanity.

This is irrelevant deflection, of course. If the post-Nazi German government had issued pardons to Hitler, Rommel, Himmler, Göring, etc., the offensiveness of their statues to the people they oppressed would not be reduced in the least. It would simply make that government complicit in rewriting and erasing the history of Nazi crimes - just as those who erected and continue to support confederate monuments here are complicit in rewriting and erasing the history of the crimes of slavery, Jim Crow, and systemic racism in law enforcement.

Carlos Ponce

"Confederate soldiers did require a pardon because the civil war was an act of treason." "On December 8, 1863, in his annual message to Congress, President Lincoln outlined his plans for reconstruction of the South, which included terms for amnesty to former Confederates." President Andrew Johnson issued a conditional pardon. All you had to do was take an oath:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear or affirm, in presence of Almighty God, that I will henceforth faithfully support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Union of the States thereunder. And that I will, in like manner, abide by and faithfully support all laws and proclamations which have been made during the existing rebellion with reference to the emancipation of slaves, so help me God."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardons_for_ex-Confederates

Bailey Jones

Very good Carlos. You're proving my points left and right today.

"I will HENCEFORTH faithfully support and defend the Constitution of the United States... " meaning, "I was engaged in activities against the Constitution of the United States (aka treason), and I promise not to do it anymore"...

And "And that I will, in like manner, abide by and faithfully support all laws and proclamations which have been made during the existing rebellion with reference to the emancipation of slaves ..." Because the rebellion was about maintaining slavery.

Carlos Ponce

Your interpretation.

Jim Forsythe

Optics of what is going on in the USA is bad.

Donald Neely being led shackled through the streets of Galveston, and being viewed all over the world.

A man having a chokehold applied that killed him, with the public in shock when they saw what happened.

Marches that happened because of problems now and the past.

Years of promises that are just that.

Until we address our problems, we will continue to have problems.

It not about a statue but the problems that we have failed to address.

Take the statue off the street, because as long as it is on display it has the potential of being a focal point of Problems.

Is a statue worth the possible problems that it may bring? Are you willing to have violence happen because of a statue?

The true leaders of all the groups involved must set down together, and be honest about what is wrong.

Healing of what happened in the past is going to be a long process.

Carlos Ponce

"Is a statue worth the possible problems that it may bring? "

You sound like the mayor of Seattle, Jim. Giving in to the statue question will lead to further demands, problems.

The healing started long ago but opening old wounds is their intention.

Jim Forsythe

Carlos, are you Carlos willing to stand in front of the statue to protect it?

Until we address our problems, we will continue to have problems and that is what you will get by drawing a line about a statue. Making a stand about an object without understanding why it is the focal point, leads to more lines being drawn. Carlos, you are the same person that was ok with Donald Neely being led shackled through the streets of Galveston, You saw nothing wrong with the Optics of that case and you see nothing wrong now.

Unless we all work together, the change that we will get will not be what anyone wants.

Without understanding why an issue is important leads to larger problems.

Carlos Ponce

"Carlos, are you Carlos willing to stand in front of the statue to protect it?"

Jim, are you Jim THREATENING to remove it by force? If so then the FBI is interested in you.

Jim Forsythe

The FBI has already done a background check on me because of the requirements of federal laws that were part of my job.

At no time did I say I was going to remove the statue but tried to remind you the some have already been removed with issues. Remember 1968 and 1969 and how fast things like that happened. How things escalated.

I was asking you that since you do not want the statue removed, would you, Carlos, be willing to protect the statue. If not, does it really mean that much too you?

Carlos Ponce

Jim posts, "The FBI has already done a background check on me ... " That was then.

The statue represents History. Officials have cameras trained on it. They will protect it from vandalism. No need for me to worry.

Jim Forsythe

"The healing started long ago but opening old wounds is their intention."

Who's healing has started? Yours?

Carlos Ponce

I have no dog in this fight, Jim. My ancestors were slaves and those who controlled slaves ... in Mexico.

Jim Forsythe

All Americans have a dog in the hunt. You Already have placed yourself into it by your stance on issues.

To say It does not pertain to you does not hold water because you alreadey have made a stand on Donald Neely

being led shackled through the streets and statues.

Carlos Ponce

My stance is what Christ told us, "Forgive one another."

Jim Forsythe

Try all you want but your position is not neutral.

Your stand on Donald Neely and the statues make it impossible for you to be neutral.

Carlos Ponce

My position is what Christ told us, "Forgive one another." If hat is not neutral ... fine. It is Christ's position as mentioned in the Bible.

Donald Neely told his family the police were "nice". I was not there so I'm not going to argue with him. Are you?

Wayne D Holt

Anyone who knows the least bit about human nature will understand the forcible deconstruction of American history, in all its glory and shame, will have the exact opposite effect claimed by those who wish to disappear every trace of slavery, of racism, of political oppression, of religious bias, of sexism, of any of the myriad failings we are heir to from our history. The object shouldn't be to disappear it all but to tell the truth about it, within the context of the time and place it occurred. America was a terrible place, no doubt...except for the fact it has been the most likely spot on earth for the average man or woman to succeed in all of history.

The world has beat a path to our door for hundreds of years. My maternal grandfather came through Ellis Island as a 16 year old Italian immigrant with $20 in his pocket. There is a reason for that. Despite its failings, despite the shadows on its history, it still was a brighter light than all the others.

The energy that is being spent in debating statues, flags, institutions' names and so on could be put to better use in frank discussions about what needs to change now, not what we have no ability to change 150 years after the fact.

History of the Confederacy is not present-day glorification of it any more than someone with a Stars and Bars decal on his car is automatically a white racist. To think otherwise is a grave mistake that is going to polarize those in the middle who are sympathetic to necessary changes but are being lumped with systemic racism based on nothing more than their accusers' own biases.

Emile Pope

Your GF came to this country and arrived with more rights and privileges than people who’d lived here all their lives. And their parents. And their parents. And their parents. And all he had to do was basically show up. Statues commemorating this injustice should be removed...

Bailey Jones

Yet, even the monument that greeted your grandfather, The Statue of Liberty, had been whitewashed by the time he arrived. The history it was intended to celebrate - the emancipation of black slaves - had been rewritten as a celebration of white European immigration, in exactly the same way and with the same intent that the erection of confederate monuments was a deliberate rewriting of American history by those who sought to glorify and exonerate the confederacy.

Bailey Jones

I heard an interview this weekend on NPR with a biographer of Frederick Douglas. A quote that sticks with me is "I fully understand that protests are not forums for complexity; current demonstrations are the results of justifiable passion and outrage."

The setting for the interview was the discussion of the Freedmans Memorial which shows Lincoln towering over a newly feed slave. The statue was dedicated during the Grant administration and paid for with contributions from newly emancipated African Americans. The biographer, David W. Blight, noted that Frederick Douglas gave the keynote address at the unveiling of the statue, and it was one of his greatest speeches. That led me to find the speech and read it. It's too long to post in its entirety, but it captures some of the "complexity" that gets lost among "justifiable passion and outrage". It's well worth a read. https://edan.si.edu/transcription/pdf_files/12955.pdf

Here's an excerpt:

"It must be admitted, truth compels me to admit, even here in the presence of the monument we have erected to his memory, Abraham Lincoln was not, in the fullest sense of the word, either our man or our model. In his interests, in his associations, in his habits of thought, and in his prejudices, he was a white man.

He was pre-eminent the white man's President, entirely devoted to the welfare of white men. He was ready and willing at any time during the first years of his administration to deny, postpone, and sacrifice the rights of humanity in the colored people to promote the welfare of the white people of this country. In all his education and feeling he was an American of the Americans. He came into the Presidential chair upon one principle alone, namely, opposition to the extension of slavery. His arguments in furtherance of this policy had their motive and mainspring in his patriotic devotion to the interests of his own race. To protect, defend, and perpetuate slavery in the States where it existed Abraham Lincoln was not less ready than any other President to draw the sword of the nation. He was ready to execute all the supposed constitutional guarantees of the United States Constitution in favor of the slave system anywhere inside the slave States. He was willing to pursue, recapture, and send back the fugitive slave to his master, and to suppress a slave rising for liberty, though his guilty master were already in arms against

the Government. The race to which we belong were not the special objects of his consideration...

First, midst, and last, you and yours were the objects of his deepest affection and his most earnest solicitude. You are the children of Abraham Lincoln. We are at best only his step-children; children by adoption, children by force of circumstances and necessity. To you it especially belongs to sound his praises, to preserve and perpetuate his

memory, to multiply his statues, to hang his pictures high upon your walls, and commend his example, for to you he was a great and glorious friend and benefactor. Instead of supplanting you at this altar, we would exhort you to build high his monuments... for while Abraham Lincoln saved for you a country, he delivered us from a bondage, according to Jefferson, one hour of which was worse than ages of the oppression your fathers rose in rebellion to oppose...

We saw him, measured him, and estimated him; not by stray utterances to injudicious and tedious delegations, who often tried his patience; not by isolated facts torn from their connection; not by any partial and imperfect glimpses, caught at inopportune moments; but by a broad survey, in the light of the stern logic of great events, and in view of that divinity which shapes our ends, rough hew them how we will, we came to the conclusion that the hour and the man of our redemption had somehow met in the person of Abraham Lincoln. It mattered little to us what language he might employ on special occasions; it mattered little to us, when we fully knew him, whether he was swift or slow in his movements; it was enough for us that Abraham Lincoln was at the head of a great movement, and was in living and earnest sympathy with that movement, which, in the nature of things, must go on until slavery should be utterly and forever abolished in the United States."

Emile Pope

One more time. The confederates were traitors. The fought to preserve an abomination. There was nothing good about them. And nothing that needed to be commemorated. The statue needs to go...

Carlos Ponce

One more time, those who fought for the Confederates were PARDONED, ecognized by all Americans, except Emile Pope.

Charlotte O'rourke

"It must be admitted, truth compels me to admit, even here in the presence of the monument we have erected to his memory, Abraham Lincoln was not, in the fullest sense of the word, either our man or our model. In his interests, in his associations, in his habits of thought, and in his prejudices, he was a white man.”

Frederick Douglas - while supporting women’s rights - left behind black women when black men were allowed to vote via the 15th amendment.

So Douglas as well as Lincoln may have had feet of clay as to the importance of equal opportunities for ALL as they were men.

But they were men of their times, and even with flaws still very great men. Men to be admired.

Sexism and racism can sometimes overlap or interconnect.

This also applies to some of the white women in the suffrage movement believing affluent white women deserved the vote over blacks and confusing ability to learn with opportunities to learn.

My role model is Sojourner Truth and her speech: Ain’t I a Woman and what a woman she was. I’ve always had great respect for black women who must overcome both racism and sexism to achieve their goals.

I’m for leaving the confederate monuments alone (even though the men were greatly flawed on the issue of slavery) and providing accompanying historical truth and the timeline for an ongoing struggle for equality.

No one is perfect and that’s why putting anyone on a pedestal gives everyone the opportunity to knock them down!

I like your writing Bailey. Thanks for the clip of the speech.

Bailey Jones

Shakespeare wrote, "“Striving to better, oft we mar what’s well." In engineering we say, "perfect is the enemy of good enough". Statues began as symbols of the imagined perfection of gods and kings. When we put our ordinary heroes on them, it tends to backfire on us and leaves us scrambling to rationalize their imperfections. Instead we should just accept that, in their day and in their crisis, they were good enough.

Bailey Jones

And thanks for the compliment, I enjoy your insights as well.

John E Sr. Macrini

Here's a Confederate Soldier's Monumental House that Mr. Collins lives in.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/columnists/native-texan/article/Historic-irony-in-the-preservation-of-Confederate-10594891.php

Bailey Jones

A good example of reclaiming and redeeming the past.

Jim Forsythe

Are you suggesting that a teaching area be set up by the Statue, just as Mr. Collins has done with Stringfellow Orchards? This would be a good idea even it was relocated.

John E Sr. Macrini

Do not move or relocate it. Just as Stringfellow Orchards, it should remain exactly where it is. The area is an excellent teaching location.

Carlos Ponce

While visiting the statue in front of the old County Courthouse a teacher could ask:

What does the broken sword signify?

What about the broken gun?

What kind of flag is the man carrying?

What does the title of the monument "Dignified Resignation" signify?

The plaque reads the statue was erected by the United Daughters of the confederacy, Mollie R. MacGill Rosenberg, President. Where have you seen the name Rosenberg before?

Why do you think some are upset with the statue?

Do you see any references to slavery on the statue or plaque?

Do you think the statue should be removed?

Walter Dannenmaier

Mr. Smith, this comment: "No Americans should be forced to confront monumental symbols that make them feel angry, intimidated or alienated when they go to engage with their government" should be considered in depth. I feel angry every time I think about The New Deal, or our senseless foreign wars. Can my anger become the standard for determining the appropriateness of public monuments?

Emile Pope

They were traitors...

Carlos Ponce

They were pardoned.

Bailey Jones

Pardoned for treason. There can't be a pardon without a crime.

Carlos Ponce

Does the word "treason" appear in Johnson's decree?

PREST. JOHNSON'S AMNESTY PROCLAMATION.

Whereas, the President of the United States, on the eighth day of December, A. D., eighteen hundred and sixty-three, and on the twenty-sixth day of March, A. D., eighteen hundred and sixty-four, did, with the object to suppress the existing rebellion, to induce all persons to return to their loyalty and to restore the authority of the United States, issue proclamations offering amnesty and pardon to certain persons who had directly or by implication participated in the said rebellion; and

Whereas, many persons who had so engaged in said rebellion have, since the issuance of said proclamation, failed or neglected to take the benefits offered thereby; and

Whereas, many persons who have been justly deprived of all claim to amnesty and pardon thereunder by reason of their participation, directly or by implication, in said rebellion and continued hostility to the Government of the United States since the date of said proclamation, now desire to apply for and obtain amnesty and pardon;

To the end, therefore, that the authority of the Government of the United States may be restored, and that peace, order and freedom may be established, I, Andrew Johnson, President of the United States, do proclaim and declare, that I hereby grant to all persons who have directly or indirectly participated in the existing rebellion, except as hereinafter excepted, amnesty and pardon, with restoration of all rights of property, except as to slaves, and except in cases where legal proceedings, under the laws of the United States providing for the confiscation of property of persons engaged in rebellion, have been instituted, but on the condition, nevertheless, that every such person shall take and subscribe to the following oath or affirmation, and thenceforward keep and maintain said oath inviolate, and which oath shall be registered for permanent preservation, and shall be of the tenor and effect following, to wit:

I, * —, do solemnly swear, (or affirm) in presence of Almighty God, that I will henceforth faithfully support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Union of the States thereunder, and that I will, in like manner, abide by and faithfully support all laws and proclamations which have been made during the existing rebellion with reference to the emancipation of slaves. So help me God.

The following classes of persons are excepted from the benefits of this proclamation:

First—All who are, or shall have been, pretended civil or diplomatic officers, or otherwise, domestic or foreign agents, of the pretended Confederate Government.

Second—All who left judicial stations under the United States to aid the rebellion.

Third—All who shall have been military or naval officers of said pretended Confederate Government above the rank of colonel in the army and lieutenant in the navy.

Fourth—All who left seats in the Congress of the United States to aid the rebellion.

Fifth—All who resigned or tendered resignations of their commissions in the army or navy of the United States to evade duty in resisting the rebellion.

Sixth—All who have engaged in any way in treating otherwise than lawfully as prisoners of war persons found in the United States service as officers, soldiers, seamen, or in other capacities.

Seventh—All persons who have been or are absentees from the United States for the purpose of aiding the rebellion.

Eighth—All military and naval officers in the rebel service who were educated by the Government in the Military Academy at West Point, or the United States Naval Academy.

Ninth—All persons who held the pretended offices of Governors of States in insurrection against the United States.

Tenth—All persons who left their homes within the jurisdiction and protection of the United States, and passed beyond the Federal military lines into the so-called Confederate States for the purpose of aiding the rebellion.

Eleventh—All persons who have been engaged in the destructions of the commerce of the United States upon the high seas, and all persons who have made raids into the United States from Canada, or been engaged in destroying the commerce of the United States upon the lakes and rivers that separate the British provinces from the United States.

Twelfth—All persons who, at the time when they seek to obtain the benefits hereof by taking the oath herein prescribed, are in military, naval or civil confinement or custody, or under bonds of the civil, military or naval authorities or agents of the United States, as prisoners of war or persons detained for offences of any kind either before or after conviction.

Thirteenth—All persons who have voluntarily participated in said rebellion, and the estimated value of whose taxable property is over twenty thousand dollars.

Fourteenth—All persons who have taken the oath of amnesty, as prescribed in the President's proclamation of December 8th, one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, or an oath of allegiance to the Government of the United States, since the date of said proclamation, and who have not thenceforward kept and maintained the same inviolate.

Provided, That special application may be made to the President for pardon by any person belonging to the excepted classes, and such clemency will be liberally extended as may be consistent with the facts of the case, and the peace and dignity of the United States.

The Secretary of State will establish rules and regulations for administering and recording the said amnesty oath, so as to insure its benefit to the people, and guard the Government against fraud.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed. Done at the city of Washington, the twenty-ninth day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-five, and of the independence of the United States the eighty-ninth.

ANDREW JOHNSON.

By the President:

Wm. H. Seward, Secretary of State.

Lincoln issued 64 pardons for war-related offences: 22 for conspiracy, 17 for treason, 12 for rebellion, nine for holding an office under the Confederacy, and four for serving with the rebels. Only 17 for treason.

Bailey Jones

Thanks for this, Carlos. I feel like it's my birthday.

First—All who are, or shall have been, pretended civil or diplomatic officers, or otherwise, domestic or foreign agents, of the pretended Confederate Government.

Third—All who shall have been military or naval officers of said pretended Confederate Government above the rank of colonel in the army and lieutenant in the navy.

Fourth—All who left seats in the Congress of the United States to aid the rebellion.

Eighth—All military and naval officers in the rebel service who were educated by the Government in the Military Academy at West Point, or the United States Naval Academy.

Ninth—All persons who held the pretended offices of Governors of States in insurrection against the United States.

Thirteenth—All persons who have voluntarily participated in said rebellion, and the estimated value of whose taxable property is over twenty thousand dollars.

These exemptions cover every single confederate leader who has been memorialized with a statue. Therefore, your assertion that they have been pardoned for their treason is proved false.

O happy day - when Jesus washed my sins away!

Carlos Ponce

As I stated Bailey, Lincoln pardoned 17 for treason. Carter pardoned one man. Think that's why he was not re-elected?

But on December 25th, 1868, "In the aftermath of the Civil War, President Andrew Johnson on this day in 1868 issued pardons to all Confederate soldiers who fought in that conflict. The president extended “unconditionally, and without reservation ... a full pardon and amnesty for the offence [sic] of treason against the United States, or of adhering to their enemies during the late Civil War, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/25/this-day-in-politics-dec-25-1868-1074077

Majority were not pardoned for "treason".

Brian Tamney

they were fighting for their freedom.

Ted Gillis

Edwin Hawkins?

George Caros

Putin/trump 2020 MEGA make Russia great again

Carlos Ponce

Poor George Caros, failing miserably to make a substantive contribution to this forum. All he can do is print out gibberish. So sad![sad]

George Caros

Putin/trump 2020 MEGA making Russia great again

Carlos Ponce

Poor George Caros, failing miserably to make a substantive contribution to this forum. All he can do is submit gibberish - again. So sad! [sad][sad]

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