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Leonard Hale

“My general thoughts are if you can wear a mask to go grocery shopping, then you can wear a mask to a five-minute voting process,” said James Olalekan. I agree. I also believe our county officials should weigh the health if the local population and the interests of at risk voters, who early voting was setup for. This does not seem to be leadership as much as showmanship.

Bailey Jones

[thumbup]

Kathleen Sukiennik

[thumbup]

Jeff Patterson

There is a reason that the US is leading the world in COVID cases and deaths, and set a new record high for cases on Friday.....if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem

Carlos Ponce

"There is a reason that the US is leading the world in COVID cases and deaths" The United States does not lead in per capita deaths.

Ahead of the US in per capita deaths is San Marino, Peru, Belgium, Andorra, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Ecuador, Spain and Mexico.

But it's still high. Why?

Under our system of government responsibility rests on the 50 governors. Leaders in per capita deaths is New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts and Connecticut. Instead of looking at the case number, look at the death number. The current number of infections is less lethal with a higher rate of recovery than earlier this year. My brother lies in a nursing home. He's diabetic, undergoes dialysis, has heart problems, had a leg amputated and he had the Chinese Virus but recovered. Thank God, thank Dr. Robin Armstrong!

Jeff Patterson

OK, I stand corrected, the US leads in total cases and death, and leads the other major developed nations in death per capita. At the end of the day, there is just no way to put lipstick on the pig as far as the US’s overall poor response to the Coronavirus, and my apologies to the pig. And I’m sure folks will respond with pages and pages of talking points about how great we did.... yes, we shut off travel to China, and then to Europe, although we did let a lot of people come in from China and stand in crowded lines at airports, so there wasn’t really a well thought out plan on this, but unfortunately after that we really had no coordinated national approach on how to use the time that that bought us to put in place effective mitigation plans. It was pretty much left to the states to fend for themselves, which is not the way to handle a national emergency. The virus doesn’t recognize state boundaries, and our results unfortunately speak for themselves. The point of my earlier post was that a key part of what has been lacking in this country to date is consistent messaging from our leadership. Not being willing to require a simple thing like people wearing masks while they’re standing in line in a closed building to vote is just another example of that failed leadership.

And to Carlos, I am glad that your brother recovered

Carlos Ponce

The Federal government has a finite set of available things it can LEGALLY do. State governments' option on the other hand vary according to their constitution and laws. Now instead of lumping the entire USA into one statistic, there needs to be FIFTY sets of data to look at, one per state.

Don Schlessinger

Responsibility for protection against Covid is on the individual. It's called PERSONAL responsibility. Those who don't understand that become ill. MASK UP!

Jeff Patterson

There is nothing that limits the federal government from taking a strong leadership position during a pandemic; in fact, dealing with a national crisis is one of the reasons to have a federal government. And states do collect data; that’s where the national number comes from. 41 states are currently reporting a rise in cases. The challenge now is that many of these cases are occurring in smaller communities that don’t have the breadth or depth of health care resources that the bigger cities do where many of the cases were occurring earlier in the year

Carlos Ponce

"There is nothing that limits the federal government from taking a strong leadership position during a pandemic;"

Leadership is one thing, taking action like national mask wearing mandates, however is not within their jurisdiction.

As far as the current epidemic look at the number of recent deaths. Sad to say but each death provides more data hence the DECLINING rate of morbidity. We learn from each death.

Jeff Patterson

Leadership is one thing, but it is a very BIG thing. And unfortunately, the leadership at the national level continues to be sadly lacking; by leadership I mean providing consistent messaging, using the power of the federal government to marshal and provide the best information, practices, materials, resources, etc to state/local entities where they are most needed, and, maybe even most importantly, setting a good example by modeling the appropriate behaviors. Deaths are now approaching levels not seen since the summer. Yes we are learning and yes we are getting better at how to treat people, but we still are getting very mixed messages, and behaviors, at the national level, which gets me back to my original comment about local leaders not requiring masks for folks waiting in line in a closed building to vote.....after 8 months and almost 225,000 deaths, its absolutely stunning to me that this is even a point of discussion or contention.

Carlos Ponce

"And unfortunately, the leadership at the national level continues to be sadly lacking;" That's your opinion based on political rhetoric, not facts.

Everything you mention that displays leadership has been done.

Charlotte O'rourke

The US is #1 in total deaths. The US is number #1 in new deaths. The US is #10 in deaths per capita.

Our death numbers continue to rise. It’s not something we want to be #1 in. The only good news is that the treatment regimen seems to be getting better, and public health measures are known but unfortunately not always being followed.

Carlos Ponce

The #1s are because of our total population. The per capita is a better measure. But if you look at the individual states and not all 50 at one time we're not doing so bad.

Jeff Patterson

So you actually believe that “we're not doing so bad“ regarding the Coronavirus ??? (you can’t see the incredulous look on my face)

Charlotte O'rourke

It is the best measure, but the US deaths per capita is moving higher in the rankings.

Gary Miller

The US death is screwed by political interference. Trafic deaths, house fires, drowning, suicides, murders are called Covid 19 deaths if there was a positive test before or after the death, Many were called Covid 19 even if they never had any physical evidence because more money is alloted for Covid deaths.

Kathleen Sukiennik

The face covering is not to protect you. It is to protect others around you. So you are protesting being a decent human being when you choose to not wear a mask.

Carlos Ponce

Judgemental coupled with paranoia unless you KNOW that person is positive.

Kathleen Sukiennik

Point is, you don’t know who is positive. And it is not hard to recognize (judge) human decency.

Carlos Ponce

The doctors have said two things more important than mask wearing: wash your hands, social distance.

There were a few at the Amy Coney Barrett reception at the White House who tested positive a few days after including reporters. Problem is the reporters kept their masks on ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE TIME WHILE AT THE RECEPTION. Masks did not help. But if it makes you feel good - wear it!

Gary Scoggin

When going out I assume everyone around me is Covid positive.

Carlos Ponce

That's called paranoia, Gary Scoggin.

Gary Miller

Gary Scoggin> Your life must be dark and unpleasant.

Gary Miller

Kathleen> When the judge elected their self their judgement is suspect. Truth is if someone knows they are not infected it's reasonal for them to act like they aren't infected. Not wearing a mask may be their way of letting others know they are safe.

Jeff Patterson

And to the comment “everything you mention that displays leadership has been done”, all I can say is that you and I have very very different views of what constitutes good leadership. Publicly criticizing/countermanding your own experts, not taking accountability, not publicly modeling the appropriate behaviors, etc are not hallmarks of good leadership.

Carlos Ponce

When the "expert" is wrong only a poor leader would agree with that expert. Trump at first went along with Fauci when the doctor said this was nothing to worry about.

"But this is not a major threat to the people of the United States and this is not something that the citizens of the United States right now should be worried about." - Dr. Anthony Fauci

And Jeff Patterson would say "I agree because the 'expert' said that" ?

Dr. Fauci also disagreed with Trump's shutting traffic from China and Europe. But later he said he was wrong and the president was right.

Modeling: the President has worn masks before. There are people around him called SECRET SERVICE who look after the president's and DOCTORS telling him what to do. They would tell him when there is a danger and to wear a mask.

Using COMMON SENSE and obeying the Secret Service and medical doctors is a sign of leadership. It is unwise to wear a mask 24/7.

According to the DOCTORS, more important is washing your hands and maintaining social distancing which the president does.

You are obviously listening to political rhetoric thinking it is truth but it's not.

Jeff Patterson

Good leadership is also about adjusting to the situation as it changes; Fauci initially didn’t believe masks for the general public was justified, but as more was learned about how the virus was transmitted, his views and recommendations evolved. He also admitted that he was about people rushing out and buying up all of the available masks as they were in very short supply for medical personnel. His latest comments are that he is now of a mind that we might actually need to go with a national mask mandate in order to get this latest surge under control.

And I’m sorry, if you are trying to make the case that the President has followed his own administration’s guidelines on mask wearing, holding meetings, social distancing, etc, then you are obviously trying to create an alternative view of reality. All you have to do is watch/read the many videos, tweets, etc of him not only not following those protocols, but openly mocking and dismissing them.

Nobody I’m aware of is suggesting to wear a mask 24/7.....not sure where that comes from

And again, I’m trying very hard not to get into a tit for tat political debate on this.... my initial comment was about the fact that good leadership matters in situations like national pandemics, and particularly for leaders, if you’re not part of the solution, then you’re part of the problem.....and the data would tell us that we are not going in the right direction.

Carlos Ponce

"you are obviously trying to create an alternative view of reality" No Jeff, that's what you're doing. You are relying on the media's presentation of what's going on and that is sad since they have a Liberal agenda not based on the facts.

"Nobody I’m aware of is suggesting to wear a mask 24/7...." That is your point. You expect the leader, here the President, to wear a mask every time he is in public. To you not wearing one shows a lack of modeling leadership. To the rest of us that is using common sense based on what the experts are really saying.

I'm not part of the problem.

Bottom line, Trump is showing leadership. The idea he is not is pure political rhetoric which you are repeating.

Jeff Patterson

Carlos. Carlos. Carlos. I’m sure the irony is lost on you, but you keep making my point…leadership matters. I don’t expect the President, or anyone, to wear a mask 24/7. What we should expect from our leaders is to model and support the recommendations of their own experts as an example to all. I know you are fixated on the media, but when those leaders publicly distain and flaunt those recommendations, it’s not the media’s fault, it’s the fault of the leaders.

Carlos Ponce

"What we should expect from our leaders is to model and support the recommendations of their own experts as an example to all."

Those are my expectations too, Jeff. Trump follows the advice of the real experts: when it is appropriate to wear a mask and when it's okay NOT to wear one.

Today I went to church. When it came to the scripture readings I went up to the ambo (pulpit) without a mask and addressed the congregation. The priest followed me proclaiming the Gospel and doing his homily sans mask.

When it is appropriate to wear a mask and when it is okay NOT to wear a mask.

What your contention is not based on what the experts say. Your posts are based on Liberal group think - and that is not what the experts proclaim.

Jeff Patterson

And it should be obvious, but the reason that it’s important for leaders to model and support the appropriate behaviors is that when they don’t, they undermine the public’s confidence in those recommendations. At this critical time with cases and deaths rising as we head into winter and the flu season, and a lot of folks already burned out with masks, social distancing, hand washing, etc, it is even more important for leaders to lead and set the right example for others to follow.

Carlos Ponce

More Liberal group think.

Jeff Patterson

It’s actually called Leadership 101, but I would not expect you to understand. And when someone has to resort to labeling and name-calling, it tells me that they have nothing substantive else to say

Carlos Ponce

I understand Leadership. And it's you who have nothing to say by repetitive mindless political rhetoric.

Jim Forsythe

Trump needs to have a Presidential address, to the public on TV, in which he would lay it out the way it is. If you want to control Covit19, we all must wear mask, wash our hands and social distanced. It we do not, this we will continue.

Leadership requires a President to do more then just say, the states have all the power. Trump needs to stand before the Senate and the House and say, we must do all we can to have people wear masks and other actions that I will outline.

A President at times must take a stand, that some do not like. A President can use pressure, to achieve what needs to be done. Or continue with the denial of the deaths to come.

We are entering flu season which will add to the lack of beds in the hot zones . The second wave has started, and we will be in for a hard Winter of sickness.

The corner we are rounding is not the corner that leads to people not dying at higher rates

Carlos Ponce

"Trump needs to have a Presidential address, to the public on TV, in which he would lay it out the way it is. If you want to control Covit19, we all must wear mask, wash our hands and social distanced. "

He did. Perhaps your Liberal news sources didn't cover them (or did you not pay attention). Many come from the Nationally televised Coronavirus Task Force New Conferences:

April 2, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d1F_aWuL1I

July 21, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL2O2KOPZ2g

July 22, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9w3d_Gus2k

July 27, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfLI3SpVI14

July 31, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyzLsAHWto4

Plenty more where those came from....

Has Nancy Pelosi always worn a mask when appropriate? A resounding NO!

Can he "use pressure"? Sure, but it would not be legal.

Gary Miller

Jim> The science experts reported that 70% of victims were infected while wearing a mask and 40% were infected by people wearing masks.

Jim Forsythe

The federal government could condition federal funds on a mask requirement, just as it does for seat belts and a drinking age.

What else can Government do?

Congress can require masks inside any business with a connection to commerce.

Indoor transmission is the big issue . Given Gonzalez v Raich and other cases expanding the commerce clause, the courts should be ok with such a mandate. Given the broad definition of interstate commerce, this would include while shopping, driving a car, and much more.

This is how Congress can also address mask wearing.

“We (Congress) find that the presence of any pandemic presents a Clear and Present danger to the National Defense, and therefore, under Article 1, Section 8 we direct the Department of Health and Human Services to implement measures mandating the wearing of masks.”

Also the Commerce clause can be used this way.

The Commerce clause allows Congress to do things that affect our economy. The pandemic is affecting our economy. They can mandate masks just as easily as they can adjust our currency policy, if it’s a matter of economics.

National Defense can also be used as a way to require mask wearing.

It is beyond dispute that a pandemic can adversely effect the National Defense. Therefore, the President, as Commander and Chief, has the absolute power to mandate the wearing of masks as a measure necessary to ensure the National Defense.

Congress, without doubt, has the power to pass legislation to mandate the wear of masks. If they could mandate rationing in World War II, or blackouts, or create the Selective Service, it is beyond doubt that they could implement a parallel measure such as the wear of masks today in the name of National Defense.

For a President to say that I have no control over what happens in the States of the United States, is not what they are elected for. He needs a plan on what the States need to do, and lay it out to the Governors and say this is what we are going to do.

Fifty different plans as what to do, has lead us to this point.

We now need a plan, so all States are on the same page.

EXCUSES ARE FOR LOSERS.

Carlos Ponce

"The federal government could condition federal funds on a mask requirement..." In an election year that would be political suicide. In Texas, Nevada Alaska there are counties with ZERO cases of the Chinese Virus. What sense does it make to mandate nationwide? Best thing is to leave it up to LOCAL scrutiny.

But that's another Democrat/Liberal/Progressive mantra: GROW THE FEDERAL AUTHORITY, CONTROL OVER THE POPULACE!

Jim Forsythe

EXCUSES ARE FOR LOSERS.

Gary Miller

Jim> Your definition suites you perfectly.

Jim Forsythe

I outlined a way mask could be mandated, which they should. A leader would do what is right regardless if it popular or not. Since this is on going, Trump may not get reelected because of his failure to oversee what needs to be done. if he had done the right thing, he would have been in a good place with the independent voters.

A President's term is four years and not three years because they are on the campaign trail for one year..

If a President can not do what is right because they may not get reelected, they are not out for the peoples needs and they should not be President.

Carlos, you said leave it up to local scrutiny, which has resulted in 228,346 deaths and counting.

If we had a plan, exceptions could be made for the four counties in the United States that haven't reported a single COVID-19 They're sparsely populated and geographically isolated.

Carlos Ponce

"I outlined a way mask could be mandated, which they should. " But it's still illegal, Jim, unless you change the US Constitution.

Jim Forsythe

I outlined about how a leader could require people to wear mask.

Jeff Patterson

So Jim, you're saying that if we got to the point where something like a mask mandate was needed nationally that a good leader could find a way to work within the framework of the Constitution and get it implemented....wow, amazing how powerful good leadership is :-)

Carlos Ponce

Unless you amend the Constitution, what Jim Proposes does not pass legal muster. And Jeff, it is not a question of leadership but of Constitutionality. Under our current system, each state may or may not depending on their constitution.

Notice Big Guy Joe Biden walked away from his national mask mandate. Why? Even Big Guy Joe says it is not constitutional:

“But here’s the deal, the federal government — there’s a constitutional issue whether federal government could issue such a mandate. I don’t think constitutionally they could, so I wouldn’t issue a mandate.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt34szBCkzo

NOW does Jim and Jeff get it?????

Gary Miller

Jim> You have out lined why people like you should never be in positions of power.

Gary Miller

Jim> that is the government we are voting against.

Jeff Patterson

Carlos, wow dude............at some point you just need to drop the shovel. Its painfully clear from your responses that you have absolutely no idea what good leadership looks like. Sorry, but now you are just embarrassing yourself.

For example, you attempt to refute Jim Forsythe's very well stated comments on what good leadership looks like by posting some links of the President actually being presidential and leading. If you understood leadership, you would know that it is not a "one and done" thing - another hallmark of good leadership is consistency. You can't say one thing one day and the next day turn around and do exactly the opposite, ie. do as I say, not as I do. I could go find and post dozens, if not hundreds, of examples of the President doing and saying the exact opposite of the video clips you posted, and even worse, openly deriding people for following his own administration's guidelines. At least in the parts of the universe that I'm aware of, that it not good leadership.

Personally, I actually think you do know what good leadership is, its just that you have to conveniently ignore that as you twist yourself into a pretzel trying to defend the indefensible. All leaders make mistakes; the good ones learn from them and adapt their behaviors; the not-so-good ones just keep digging deeper.

Carlos Ponce

"you would know that it is not a 'one and done' thing Did you BOTHER to look at ALL the links??? Jeff, it's apparent you did not. And there are many more I did not post. It is evident you are embarrassing yourself by calling it "one and done".

"Personally, I actually think you do know what good leadership is" Thank you. CASE CLOSED!

Jeff Patterson

I'm sure that in the bubble that you chose to live in that the case is indeed closed

Carlos Ponce

I don't live in a "bubble", I live in the real world. And we'll see just how many live in your bubble when the election results are announced.

Jeff, just don't do anything drastic when Trump's re-election is announced.

Jeff Patterson

If Trump wins, Trump wins, and he's President for the next 4 years....that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion we've been having about leadership. I can only hope that if he does win that he consistently displays the behaviors from the videos you posted and steps up and shows some real self discipline, focus, and yes, strong leadership, regarding the US's approach to COVID in 2021; the classic definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results. Regardless of your politics, we are entering a new and dangerous phase of the virus; good leadership will matter even more in the coming year.

Carlos Ponce

Poor Jeff! Still believes all that political rhetoric nonsense.

Jeff Patterson

You’re absolutely right Carlos.....leadership mean nothing in successfully battling pandemics. Blind partisan loyalty and rhetorical talking points are the real keys to success 🤦🏻‍♂️

Carlos Ponce

Donald Trump has displayed leadership. The idea you cannot see that sounds like a Jeff Patterson personal problem.

Jeff Patterson

Wow, so you really want go there. As my mom used to say, you are a glutton for punishment. Ok, since you asked.....so against the backdrop of back to back days of the highest ever number of new cases in the US, with 32 states seeing increases - and many of them not having the robust medical systems of some of the larger urban areas where the earlier waves of infections occurred - hospitalizations risings, deaths rising, winter and the flu season rapidly approaching, COVID infections running rampant through the President's staff and now the Vice President's, and the administration saying that we are now entering a dangerous third wave and with the model used by the administration predicting that another 200,000 more Americans could die by Jan 1, you would expect a President to be sending a consistent message of empathy and caution, reinforcing his own administration's recommendations on appropriate mitigations like mask wearing, social distancing, targeted shutdowns of high risks areas/places/activities, etc, and actively supporting the leaders on the ground who have to do the hard work of implementing them. Instead, we get someone who continues to undermine his own administration's guidelines by ridiculing those who follow them, openly flaunting them, and then publicly bragging about it, all to try to score cheap political points. Its hard to find the right words to properly describe how utterly irresponsible that is, but one way you would absolutely NOT describe it would be as an example of "good leadership".

Anyone can search and find many examples of these behaviors.....I included a few recent ones below. We are bombarded with these messages daily, and unfortunately they have had the cumulative effect of convincing a fair number of Americans that COVID is really not a big deal, which is a terribly tragic fallout from the lack of good national leadership on this critical issue.

"It will go away and, as I say, we're rounding the turn."

"We're rounding the turn, we're doing great, our numbers are incredible."

“When you look at North Carolina, when you look at these governors are under siege, Pennsylvania, Michigan and a couple of others, you've got to open these states up. It's not fair. You're talking about almost it's like being in prison.”

Reporter - take off your mask

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP3VqBWF8i8

Mocking those who wear masks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hND0nHVMeHg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKTknVUIdhQ

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/05/white-house-social-distancing-measures-abandoned-because-it-looks-better-303730

Jeff Patterson

And here’s another inspiring message from this morning via Twitter...

“Cases up because we TEST, TEST, TEST. A Fake News Media Conspiracy, Many young people who heal very fast. 99.9%. Corrupt Media conspiracy at all time high. On November 4th., topic will totally change. VOTE!”

Carlos Ponce

Why look at cases? Look instead at the mortality rate. We've rounded the corner.

Jim Forsythe

The average of new cases has been steadily increasing this month, going from 42,348 on Oct. 2 to 78,888 on Oct. 24.

Carlos said , "Look instead at the mortality rate" the total deaths are below. Since the new surge has started, we can expect a increase in the number of deaths because the increase in cases is happening in the Midwest, that has less hospital bed capacity than the larger cities. Also with the start of flu season, the number of beds for Covit19, has decreased.

The seven-day average for U.S. newly reported deaths has also increased throughout the month, going from 703 on Oct. 2 to 807 on Oct. 24,

The death total as of 10/26/2020, 228,590 and increasing.

Jeff Patterson

Thanks Jim for sharing. Pretty frightening data. If we’ve rounded the corner, I think we took a wrong turn at Albuquerque………

Carlos Ponce

The rate is decreasing, Jim.

April 2 - 2467 deaths from the Chinese Virus

Oct 26 - 389 deaths

Jeff Patterson

I would add though that my interest is in discussing and debating the data and views about an issue.... I have no interest in the conversation when it degrades into insulting people, regardless of their views

Jim Forsythe

Carlos, you read the charts wrong or too early in the day.

865 deaths for 10/26/2020 (and today is not over), which indicates we are in the start of a new wave.

The curve we are in is a bell curve, and we are at the bottom of it , going towards the top.

By November 3rd, we should be over 1000 deaths a day.

Carlos Ponce

Jim, we have less pandemic deaths than at the highest peak in April.

Jim Forsythe

Carlos, you keep trying to lump all the waves together. We are now on the 3rd wave and you keep referring to the first wave. We are at the start of the 3rd wave, that shows that it may worse than all the other waves so far. Unless we are careful, we may be in trouble because of the lack of care for the one's that become sick. Many places in USA are almost at their max. capacity. We need to do all that is possible to reduce the numbers that get sick. They are finding that some are becoming sick with Coronavirus “Long-Hauler”. Just another reason no one wants to catch Corona19.

Of the 10 states with the highest rates of new coronavirus cases per capita according to a White House Coronavirus Task Force report this month, seven do not require residents to wear masks.

Carlos Ponce

Jim puts ot his hand and moves it up and down - a new wave.

Jim Forsythe

No Carlos, a Coronavirus 19 wave. I did not produce these wave, they are from not using PPE like we should be.

The death total for today is 1,038 and the day is not over.

Unless we reduce the numbers, we are in for a very bad Winter for deaths from Coronavirus 19.

Yesterday I said, "By November 3rd, we should be over 1000 deaths a day." and i was wrong, as we have already reached over 1,000.

Carlos Ponce

Wave bye bye, Jim![rolleyes]

Jim Forsythe

Update, we now have 1,225 deaths today.

Jeff Patterson

Carlos, you continue to be the fountain of disinformation. Deaths are lower on Sunday's and Monday's due to the reporting process. You should look at the 7 day trailing average......that has spiked back up over 800. The 7 day average of daily new cases reached an all-time high of 68,767 on Sunday, according to data from Johns Hopkins University. The previous record of 67,293 was set July 22. Not good folks.

Carlos Ponce

Very well,

Math Lesson time!

2467 daily deaths is GREATER THAN 800.

2467 > 800

Remember Jeff, the alligator eats the smaller number.

You can also write

800 < 2467

eight hundred is LESS THAN 2467, roughly one-third.

Now repeat: the number of pandemic deaths is going DOWN.

Jim Forsythe

April 2- 1,172 deaths from Corona19, which was at the middle of the first bell curve, going up .

What we experiencing is not part of the first wave (or bell curve). One can not use the first wave to say, since we now have less than the numbers that happened then, our number of deaths is going down.

We are at the bottom of this wave, that could turn out to be a lot worse that the first wave.

Since we are seeing record number of new cases, we will see a increase of deaths in the coming weeks..

Carlos Ponce

"we now have less than the numbers that happened then" Wait for it.

Carlos Ponce

The alligator eats the bigger number. My apologies, I was distracted by the swearing in of Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett!

Gary Miller

Jeff> How many were actually Auto wrecks, home fires, drownings, suicides or murder?

China only counts deaths that were caused by the virus, many Europeans do it the same way. If you believe the US political count you are part of the problem.

Jeff Patterson

Gary, I know that I'm not going to convince you otherwise, but I know that you are aware that all of the conspiracy theories about how COVID deaths in the US are overcounted, mislabeled for financial gain by hospitals, or that this will all "magically" go away on Nov 4th have been long since been debunked. The numbers are not perfect I'm sure, but there are a whole lot of hardworking professionals trying their best to keep up with the data on cases, deaths, hospitalizations, etc so that the right decisions can made on supplies, treatments, and mitigation strategies (things like wearing masks, what activities are safe, etc). If you look at the number of excess deaths in the US since the COVID outbreak began, deaths from COVID are being undercounted if anything. We are in the midst of one of the, if not THE, worst health crisis in our lifetimes, and its unfortunately getting worse, not better. This is not the time to spread misinformation and debunked conspiracy theories.

Carlos Ponce

"but I know that you are aware that all of the conspiracy theories about how COVID deaths in the US are overcounted,..."

I remind you of Laura Elder's Editorial: "We can't let COVID-19 scare us to death"

https://www.galvnews.com/opinion/editorials/free/article_9b7b5c51-c23a-5f43-84a0-442ce202dc4d.html

"The Mississippi State Department of Health, however, “demands” that anyone who has a positive coronavirus test at the time of death be reported as a “COVID death,” without acknowledging the fact that “many of them were terminal prior to a [positive test],” Pounders said.

Such is the case all over the United States, Dr. Deborah Birx, a member of the national COVID-19 task force, has said.

A person was counted as a victim of the pandemic if he tested positive for the virus, even if something else was the cause of death, Birx said."

And I posted from the Mississippi State Department of Health:

https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/14,22075,420,694.html

If the death is a suspected/probable COVID-19 case, should the physician indicate that on the death certificate?

Yes, the physician should list Probable COVID-19 as the Cause of Death in Part I, or if there is a reasonable likelihood that COVID-19 contributed to the death then list COVID-19 as the Cause of Death in Part II.

If the patient was a confirmed COVID-19 case, but COVID-19 contributed to but did not cause the death, such as stroke, how should the death certificate be completed?

The Cause of Death in Part I should be stroke and COVID-19 should be listed in Part II.

If the patient died of Acute Respiratory Failure and had COVID-19, what should the physician include as the Cause of Death?

The physician should include both Acute Respiratory Failure and COVID-19 on separate lines in Part I Cause of Death.

If the patient was a confirmed COVID-19 case, but the cause of death was not related to COVID-19 nor did COVID-19 contribute to the death, how should the physician complete the death certificate?

If COVID-19 was unrelated to the cause of death and not a contributing factor, it should not be included in Part I or II of the death certificate.

If a patient was a confirmed COVID-19 case and the physician determines pneumonia and COVID-19 to be causes of death, how do they complete the death certificate?

Pneumonia and COVID-19 should be listed on separate lines in Part I Cause of Death.

If a Medical Examiner, in their best medical opinion, suspects COVID-19 is the cause of death, should COVID-19 be listed as the cause of death without laboratory test confirmation?

Yes, a Medical Examiner may conclude the cause of death is COVID-19 and list it in Part I of the death certificate.

If a Coroner suspects COVID-19 is the cause of death, should COVID-19 be listed as the cause of death without laboratory test confirmation?

Yes, if COVID-19 is probable or suspected, list “Probable COVID-19” or “Suspected COVID-19” in Part I.

Should a physician, Medical Examiner or Coroner include pre-existing conditions that may increase susceptibility to infection or exacerbate COVID-19, such as COPD or asthma on the death certificate?

Yes, pre-existing conditions that may have increased susceptibility to or exacerbated COVID-19 should be listed in Part II of the death certificate.

How should sepsis be addressed on the death certificate for COVID-19 related deaths?

Sepsis should be listed as the immediate cause of death on line a in Part I and COVID-19 should be listed on line b in Part I.

If a Medical Examiner, in their best medical opinion, suspects COVID-19 is the cause of death, should COVID-19 be listed as the cause of death without laboratory test confirmation?

Yes, a Medical Examiner may conclude the cause of death is COVID-19 and list it in Part I of the death certificate.

If a Coroner suspects COVID-19 is the cause of death, should COVID-19 be listed as the cause of death without laboratory test confirmation?

Yes, if COVID-19 is probable or suspected, list “Probable COVID-19” or “Suspected COVID-19” in Part I.

Should a physician, Medical Examiner or Coroner include pre-existing conditions that may increase susceptibility to infection or exacerbate COVID-19, such as COPD or asthma on the death certificate?

Yes, pre-existing conditions that may have increased susceptibility to or exacerbated COVID-19 should be listed in Part II of the death certificate.

How should sepsis be addressed on the death certificate for COVID-19 related deaths?

Sepsis should be listed as the immediate cause of death on line a in Part I and COVID-19 should be listed on line b in Part I.

Jeff Patterson

So Carlos, I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and bet that you are not a trained epidemiologist or public health professional who collects and manages data like this for a living. I'm a degreed engineer, so I certainly understand the math, including the statistics, but I know that I don't know all the in's and out's of properly collecting and analyzing complex epidemiology data. So I:m going to conclude that either you or I, or any others who are not properly educated and trained in epidemiology, who are pulling information off of websites and trying to our do own analysis are probably not going to come to any meaningful conclusions or insights, and may in fact come to some very erroneous ones. And that is particularly true if we have any personal biases that might cloud or slant our conclusions. So I'd recommend that we leave that to the professionals; those professionals are telling us that we are heading into very dangerous times with new record high numbers of cases daily now, rising deaths and hospitalizations, and 41 states with either uncontrolled community spread or very poor trend lines. I frankly think that amateurs have done more than enough damage already; its high time we all listened to the professionals before this really gets out of hand.

Bailey Jones

Jeff (or Connie), there is left and there is right, and there is reality - which doesn't care about our political philosophy. As a fellow engineer, I'm sure you value reality, as do I. We may see different problems and different solutions, but the objective view of reality that comes from good science and transparent government has to be the basis for everything we say and do - otherwise we're just perpetuating self-delusion.

Jeff Patterson

Hey Bailey, it is Jeff. I totally agree, well said. As Ayn Rand once said, you can avoid reality, but you can't avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.

Jeff Patterson

Yep, nothing to see here......just people getting sick and dying 😓

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/10/27/928062773/u-s-cases-surpass-summer-peak-and-are-climbing-higher-fast

Carlos Ponce

That's a nit picking statistic from NPR, Jeff. What they fail to point out is the majority of the new positives are either asymptomatic or have mild symptoms. But they do point out the number of hospitalizations is less.

But you're right about the link you provided: "Yep, nothing to see here..."

Gary Miller

Jeff> People getting sick and 98.8 % recovering.

Mike Zeller

The only thing more Pathetic than Trump, is his uneducated followers that believe everything that is spewed from his mouth. Be glad his cult only consist of 35 to 40 percent of the voting public.

2018 Blue Wave, to be continued ........

Carlos Ponce

That Blue wave will be Mike Zeller urinating in the swimming pool, nothing more.

Ted Gillis

Mike, there doesn’t appear to be room for you and I in this conversation. This is the Jeff and Carlos show. Stand down.

Jeff Patterson

Sorry about that… I got a little fired up on a couple of items. Feel free to jump in… I need a rest :-)

Jeff Patterson

I would add though that my interest is in discussing and debating the issues; when the conversation degrades into insulting people, please count me out.

Carlos Ponce

So, quit insulting!

Jeff Patterson

I don’t consider challenging your views and/or calling you out on your misinformation an insult..... if that’s the way you take it, I would recommend not taking all of this so personally

Carlos Ponce

What you are doing, Jeff is a lot more than "challenging" views. I suggest you look at your posts and see through self analysis what you're doing.

Ted Gillis

I was just kidding with you Jeff. You can stay at it as long as you want. One thing about our friend Carlos is that he stays with it, is quick on the comeback and has plenty of source material handy.

Jeff Patterson

Thanks Ted :-). You do have to give him credit; he is relentless. It’s just a shame that he pre-forms his conclusions to fit his politics and then spends a lot of time and energy manipulating his information to support them.

Carlos Ponce

"pre-forms"? Actually it's based on truth.

Jeff Patterson

Just so we are clear, I feel that you come from the position that President Trump is perfect and can do no wrong, so all of your comments are predicated on proving that point, regardless of the merits of the particular issue, and that anybody that says anything otherwise is a liberal, a hater and/or has some kind of personal problem. Now if you want to argue that the President has had some positive impacts on getting some of the NATO countries to up their spending on defense, or several peace agreements signed in the Middle East, or the passing of criminal justice reform, then I think you have a good case to make, and although I think some of the "how's" were a bit clumsy, I would even agree with you that in general he moved things in a positive direction on those issues. But when you want to make the argument that he has done a great job of leading on COVID and we are "turning the corner", then I think you come across as the guy up on the soapbox on the corner trying desperately to convince all the passers-by that the sky is green; folks just shrug their shoulders and keep walking, trying hard not to make eye contact. I think if you picked your battles more wisely you would have a lot more credibility, at least with me. Again, I give you credit for your determination and effort, I just think you could be a little more open to considering what others have to say vs. always falling back to trying to prove that the President is right and perfect on every issue.

Carlos Ponce

Thank you, Ted.

Carlos Ponce

Where are masks mandated on the state level? Let's look at Hawaii:

April 20, 2020 Masks required inside businesses.

April 7, 2020 Honolulu required masks outside in public.

Did the number of pandemic infections decrease? No. In fact they went up - dramatically.

How about Kansas:

Masks mandated July 3. after that, infections went .............UP, BIG TIME.

How about West Virginia.

Masks mandated on July 6. And guess what.... infections went UP.

Cities:

Los Angeles April 10

San Diego May 1

Orange County, CA June 16 and 18

And after the mandates, infections rose dramatically.

And then there's the country of France. After mask mandates.... you guessed it.....UP.

And so on, and so on, and so on........

domenico nuckols

KISS use a face coverings.

Ted Gillis

One good thing handy about wearing a face mask is that you can stick your tongue out at Trump supporter, and they just assume you’re trying to smile at them.

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