Lately, I’ve watched some professional football players show total disrespect for our flag and country during the playing of the national anthem. I was career military and have observed things that no one should have seen. Those players have no idea what pain and suffering our military have been through so they have an opportunity to play the game.

I have enjoyed watching professional football, but I refuse to watch any game when some players show total disrespect for our flag and country during the playing of the national anthem.

There is a time and place to show your disapproval of injustices, real or imagined, but during the national anthem is not one of them. At my disposal I have all kinds of entertainment that will occupy my time; I don’t need professional football. Fans could put a stop to this blasphemy if they did not attend the games, watch them on TV and refuse to buy the products of the advertisers.

Let them play in empty stadiums and I believe this disrespect for our flag and country would end immediately. How about it fans, do you agree with me; disrespect for flag and country will not be tolerated?

Kenneth L. Johnson

Algoa

Locations

(114) comments

Allison Buchtien

If kneeling is the worst they do, then kneel on. Some football players have assaulted women and children, driven drunk, do illegal drugs, etc. I say this is nothing compared to all of that. Another person using their First Amendment right has no effect on my life.

Carlos Ponce

First Amendment only applies to government not private business. Players can protest all they want but not on company time. Companies can limit what you say and do while on the job.
NFL rules state:
"The League will not grant permission for any club or player to wear, display, or otherwise convey messages, through helmet decals, arm bands, jersey patches, or other items affixed to game uniforms or equipment, which relate to political activities or causes, other non-football events, causes or campaigns, or charitable causes or campaigns." Rule 5 Section 4 Article 8 page 23
http://operations.nfl.com/media/2725/2017-playing-rules.pdf
Now if the Federal, state, or local government had those rules then they would be in violation of the First Amendment. Since it is a private company, the First Amendment does not apply.

Emile Pope

Rule does not apply.

Carlos Ponce

You miss the point, Emile. Can the NFL restrict a player's "freedom of speech" while on the job? Yes.

Jim Forsythe

The key word is can, not must. Just as you and I can watch or not, business have a right to run their business they way they see fit.
If you disagree with the way they are running their business, do not use their product.

Freedom of speech is not just a First Amendment issue.
Private sector employer should take into account the effect of the anti-discrimination laws such as Title VII, RCW 40.60 (the Washington Laws Against Discrimination or “WLAD”) and various local laws. These laws provide a level of protection for certain types of expression in the workplace, and thus should be considered even if the right of speech associated with these laws is not a “First Amendment” right per se. 
Even though the First Amendment free speech criteria do not apply to private employers, determine if there is some other interest that governs the employee’s ability top speak freely.  Some examples.
Is this employee’s speech being restricted or punished because the employee is expressing religious or other beliefs that are different from the employer’s or from co-workers? This would have to be taken into account., as the First Amendment does not apply , other rights might.

Are employees of some religions or national origins allowed to express themselves regarding religion or national origin, but not others?
Is the employee being punished for speaking a different language during lunch or breaks?

Carlos Ponce

Jim posts: "Is the employee being punished for speaking a different language during lunch or breaks?"
Key phrase "LUNCH OR BREAKS".
NFL players cannot eat lunch during a game but during a break in the action such as Time-Outs let them take a knee.[beam]

Jim Forsythe

Some examples. (the first  one applies to NFL, the rest is for reference.) not all will pertain to all.

Is this employee’s speech being restricted or punished because the employee is expressing religious or other beliefs that are different from the employer’s or from co-workers? This would have to be taken into account., as the First Amendment does not apply , other rights might.

Are employees of some religions or national origins allowed to express themselves regarding religion or national origin, but not others?

Is the employee being punished for speaking a different language during lunch or breaks

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "Players can protest all they want but not on company time. "

Careful you don't misrepresent there Carlos..From the New York Times:

_As it happens, the law is much more expansive, protecting any “concerted activities” that employees engage in to support one another in the workplace. The National Labor Relations Board and the courts have defined such activity to include everything from airing complaints about one’s boss through social media to publicly supporting political causes that have some bearing on one’s work life.

The league’s operations manual says players must be on the sidelines during the anthem and should stand. While the law might not bear on whether an individual player can kneel during the anthem, many experts say it could protect players from repercussions for making such a gesture together — or taking other action — to show solidarity on the job._

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/business/economy/nfl-players-kneeling-national-anthem-labor-laws.html

Craig Lindberg

Of course, Mark is perfectly happy to misrepresent. CK could clearly have been disciplined from Day 1, and obviously millionaire NFL players are oppressed, so the protest is "clearly relevant to their job". If you are a libtard. Got to love those democrats, take a labor ruling that's meant to protect the most vulnerable and try to use it to justify the inappropriate actions of a bunch of coddled millionaires. Party of the people my ass. Party of BS is more like it. From the same article:

"To be protected under federal labor law, an employee’s action must be conducted in concert with co-workers, it must address an issue of relevance to their job, and it must be carried out using appropriate means."

Mark Aaron

Craig: ""To be protected under federal labor law, an employee’s action must be conducted in concert with co-workers, it must address an issue of relevance to their job, and it must be carried out using appropriate means.""

From the article I cited, cited for the 2nd time:

_many experts say it could protect players from repercussions for making such a gesture together — or taking other action — to show solidarity on the job._

" to show solidarity on the job" is relevant to their job. Do try to keep up Craig.

Doyle Beard

You need to respect those who gave them those rights, Whats wrong with 3 minues of respect the brave women and men who has assure those right. there is a time an place for this. Apparenty some dont know how those rights have been protected.

Emile Pope

Anyone who says that there is a time and place is part of the problem. You don't get to decide how,where,and when an injustice is protested if you aren't the victim of the injustice. People told MLK that it wasn't the right time or place to protest segregation and racism and they were as wrong as the ones saying that today.

Carlos Ponce

Emile, how about protesting at your job site.
Remember some fast food workers decided to not serve police officers. They are now unemployed. They can protest but suffered the consequences.
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. knew the consequences and was jailed. Did he fight that?

Emile Pope

Yes...

Carlos Ponce

Not quite. Check your history. He wished to make a point. A Christian man, he went without being confrontational.

Craig Lindberg

So will you stand up against the anti-2A gun grabbers who think they get to decide how, where, and when someone else gets to defend themself? Any guns, anywhere, right?

Craig Lindberg

Hey Emile, do you ever think of making an argument without throwing in the race card?

Mark Aaron

Craig: "So will you stand up against the anti-2A gun grabbers who think they get to decide how, where, and when someone else gets to defend themself? Any guns, anywhere, right?"

Poor desperate Craig. Your pathetic argumentum ad absurdum makes you look ridiculous. Your craven adherence to the NRA's lies makes you look even worse.

Mark Aaron

Craig: "Hey Emile, do you ever think of making an argument without throwing in the race card?"

He is not the one "playing the race card." That would be you, Craig. "Playing the race card" infers that race is not an appropriate factor in a discussion. Race unquestionably is a factor when discussing the systematic abuse of Blacks by police in America and how Blacks protest that abuse.

Emile Pope

"Remember some fast food workers decided to not serve police officers". Those workers refused to do their jobs. It's not the football player's job to stand for the anthem. It's to play football. Another irrelevant comment by Ponce...

Mark Aaron

Doyle: "Whats wrong with 3 minues of respect the brave women and men who has assure those right. there is a time an place for this. Apparenty some dont know how those rights have been protected."

Apparently you don't know what we veterans fought for Doyle. One of the main things is the right to speak truth to power, to assemble and air our grievances. Most of the vets I know, like most Americans, support the NFL players right to kneel during the National Anthem in protest of how Blacks are systematically mistreated by the police.

PD Hyatt

I agree. We have stopped watching any of the NFL games since the kneeling began with Kopernick. These clowns who are protesting should be protesting about the way that they treat their women and families, they should be fired for the first offense of domestic abuse, or drugs.... And none of them have had to put up with oppression. If they were really concerned about the welfare of people they would bee putting their money where their mouths are.... Sort donating a large chuck of your millions to help others by giving them a hand up and not a hand out. God and spend time in those areas and start mentoring a child that is at risk.... Of course most liberals scream about doing that but some how they never seem to get around to doing anything to help their own people....

Carlos Ponce

"NFL Player Arrests' [Since 2000]
https://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/arrests/
Problem in domestic abuse charges is that many of the women involved "recant" their stories letting the abuser go free.
Remember QB Warren Moon? He was acquitted of spousal abuse after Felicia Moon testified it was all her fault in 1996. They divorced in 2001 after separated for two years. In 1994 "former Vikings cheerleader Michelle Eaves, 24, filed sexual harassment charges against him in Minneapolis. Moon denied any wrongdoing and quickly settled the case out of court, but unsavory details leaked out. Among them: Eaves charged that Moon once showed up at a bar where she was working as a waitress and asked to sip tequila from a glass held between her legs."
http://people.com/archive/personal-foul-vol-44-no-6/

Jim Forsythe

If the NFL players no longer knell , will it make a difference to you. For the Texan game Sunday , they did not show it. If TV follows this lead, then it will slowly decrease . The NFL, is slow in response as any large business is, but are going to address it.
A day after the NFL said the league would be discussing what to do about national anthem protests at the owners' meetings next week, it sent out another memo saying the players union would be involved in those discussions. They are looking at providing another way to protest.
What many people are missing in this debate is the fact that prior to 2009, NFL teams did not generally stand for the anthem as most stayed in the dressing room, getting ready for game.
Does everyone in the stands, stand with hand over heart or salute? Do  you stand  at home when it is played on TV?
 When the VP went to the NFL game , did every one that came with him, salute or have hand over heart? If you look at the picture , the answer is no, even the man in the military. Maybe the picture was taken early, but the VP and his wife had their hand on their heart.
Three out of six in picture were not saluting or had hand over heart. The man behind the VP was playing with his other hand.
http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/article/Vice-President-Pence-leaves-49ers-game-in-12262095.php#photo-14309787

Every profession, including the NFL, has members that are not angels. Does it make it right, no, but people are human.
Police chief: Suspect in killing of Florida police officer arrested, faces murder 
Brooklyn teacher has been arrested after police say he sexually abused a student
Teachers abusing disabled students A former teacher at a Catholic school in Queens who said she had reported the sexual abuse of seven female students by a priest
 Richard "Scott" Silverthorne is mayor of Fairfax, Virginia, a wealthy Washington suburb of 22,000 people. He's also a substitute teacher in the county public schools.
But, as police revealed Thursday, Silverthorne, 50, allegedly had a side gig: meth dealer. 
The Texas dentist who was convicted of running over her cheating husband
 Stockton Mayor Anthony Silva  Authorities say Silva was arrested Thursday, Aug. 4, 2016, on charges he provided alcohol to minors at a youth camp he runs.


Mark Aaron

Carlos: ""NFL Player Arrests' [Since 2000]"

Poor Carlos, duped by Paul's stinking red herrings. Or were you just a willing participant in his fallacy? Which was it, Carlos?

Mark Aaron

Paul: "And none of them have had to put up with oppression. "

As if you would know.

Mark Aaron

Paul: "These clowns who are protesting should be protesting about the way that they treat their women and families, they should be fired for the first offense of domestic abuse, or drugs..."

Your 'red herrings' are stinking Paul. Why do you and the rest of "the usual suspects" here have such a problem recognizing the Blacks are being systematically abused by the police in this country? Is your racism stopping you? It sure seems like it.

Emile Pope

Blasphemy? Unfortunate use of the word. But I have a solution. If people are so offended by these protests, please send me your tickets to the games. I will personally go to the stadium and see to it that those tickets will be given to individuals who will tear them up. I'll even go so far as to make sure none of those un-American fans in attendance sit in your reserved seats. No thanks necessary, it'll be my pleasure. Oh, and send me your parking vouchers too. No use in letting them get all of the good spots...

PD Hyatt

While most of us will be at home during those games and not watching them, that is what is going to hurt the NFL the most as the TV revenues go down so will the big paycheck that the NFL teams were expecting from the new TV contract.... I do wish that the owners of the season tickets for the NFL would stop showing up as that would really start sending a message.... If the NBA starts this garbage we will stop going to the Rockets games.... In our case I will eat the cost and then not renew my season tickets at that point....

Doyle Beard

The NFL, MLB and NBA are nothing but leeches on the taxpayer. Making billions and not paying taxes at teh expense of the taxpayer by the subsidation.

Jim Forsythe

The tax man forgets no one.
In 2013 ,on average, every MLB, NFL and NBA player pays $1 million in federal taxes.
State income tax varies greatly depending where an athlete lives. In addition, some states require athletes to pay tax on the income earned during the days they worked in that state, a levy known as a “jock tax.” When it’s all said and done, many athletes are paying as much as half their income in taxes.
NFL’s 32 teams pays taxes on their profits

Doyle Beard

The NFL is a non profit organization if I am not mistaken.

Jim Forsythe

Doyle, the NFL pays taxes. The League office does not pay taxes, as they do not make money.

Claims that the NFL is using a tax exemption to avoid paying the tax due on these revenues are simply misinformed. The confusion arises from the fact that there is one small part of the NFL, unrelated to all this business activity, that is tax-exempt: the NFL League Office
Every dollar of income that is earned in the National Football League — from game tickets, television rights fees, jersey sales and national sponsorships — is subject to tax. None of this income is shielded in a tax-exempt entity. Instead, the NFL’s 32 clubs pay tax on all of these revenues.

Doyle Beard

The owners and the players pay tax except the green bay packers club. The league office is a 501 (c) (6) and does not pay taxes. Look at the revenue they get and dont pay taxes.
About 70% of the operating and upkeep is paid for by tax payers.

Doyle Beard

Some people just dont give a damn.

Mike Trube

I encourage fans to not only boycott the games, but also their sponsors. Hit them in the pocketbook. Especially Anheiser Busch beer. And hopefully former fans will follow through to the unsuperbowl. This insanity has to stop. Show these oppressed millionaires who really holds the purse strings. We deserve real men with high morals and ethics to play the game we enjoy. Let them take a knee in front of police stations if that is who they are protesting against. But they won't, because they are whinny cowards.

Connie

Allison Buchtien

Haha! Good luck getting people to stop drinking beer.

Carlos Ponce

I don't drink beer but understand there are other brands available.

Mark Aaron

Mike: " We deserve real men with high morals and ethics to play the game we enjoy."

How about politicians who disrespect our military? How do you feel about them?

Doyle Beard

I read one time where so many live at the expense of the government and never realize the the government lives at the expense of the people. I say pro sports is one of those that live at the expense of the government.

Craig Lindberg

I was done with pro football long before the CK nonsense. Who needs pro football when you have Friday Night Lights!

Carlos Ponce

Great! I usually attend Hitchcock games but since they had a week off I attended the Santa Fe-Texas City game. Great game! Santa Fe lined before the anthem, left hand holding helmet, right hand on their teammate's shoulder. The player closest to the flag had his hand over his heart. Texas City did something similar. The outcome of the game was in question until the final seconds ticked off. I just wish the game officials had better control of the game clock. It had to be reset several times that night delaying action.

Mark Aaron

Craig: "I was done with pro football long before the CK nonsense."

So why then do you even care other than as an opportunity to disparage Black people?

Keith Gray

Some great football coming up on Friday night... Players who play for the love of the game, and some who will soon go into the armed services to protect the right of wealthy athletes to act a fool...

Carlos Ponce

I see you have picked Ball over Santa Fe. MaxPreps agrees with that assessment. Santa Fe has a good team but Ball is rated higher. Do you know if any Indian injuries resulted from the TC game? It was tough. And Hitchcock over Anahuac was a good choice.

Keith Gray

I always want the Fe to win... but I guess this is all an over 50 hasbeen/neverwas athlete can compete in. I have some life long friends who coach at the Fe, and they are very good, as is the team. If I lose because they beat Ball, then I'm very OK with that. It took me 1/2 and hour to select Hitchcock over Anahuac... it can go either way IMHO. I still enjoy you and George doing battle... we are out hear quietly cheering both of you on, but logic is out the window.

Carlos Ponce

The games Hitchcock has lost this year (East Bernard, Concordia Lutheran, Shiner) were all played on grass. Anahuac has a grass field but the game will be played on Hitchcock's artificial turf. Looking forward on the schedule all future games will be played on artificial turf except Hempstead. Will it make a difference? We'll find out.

Keith Gray

Well it will speed up the players a bit... I like the game on grass... I believe it was intended to be played on grass... but it is a lot of work to keep a grass field in good shape. I remember back in the old days, some teams would water the heck out of the field outside the hash marks, and let the grass grow above ankle high... that was always a game changer for the slower team...

Andy Brown

What's funny is that there were very few players protesting before Trump had his little "SOB" comment in AL. Week 1 of the NFL only saw 7 players either kneel or put a fist in the air. The Sunday after Trump's comments there were hundreds protesting. Good thing you can count on you're boy to stir the pot. LMAO!

Jim Forsythe

Trump frequently drew attention by sparring with the NFL. More than 30 years ago, Donald Trump bought a franchise in United States  Football League. Since that time he has tried to prove he was right when he was a owner of the New Jersey Generals He  tries to place the blame on the NFL as to why the USFL went under. He was one of the reasons it went under, by his overspending and bad management. Since that time, he has frequently spared with  the NFL, 

Doyle Beard

Sounda like you have not been around long enough to know what is going on. Remember the AFL and and what the NFL did to them. RLPH NEELY, BILLY CANNON AND MANY MORE.Would not give DallaS an expANSION team until theAFL PUT THE Dallas Texan (kansas city chief) in dallas and the they gave clint murchison one called the Dallas Cowboys. The AFL did more for the NFL than one can imagine.Dont get in their way air they will run over you.

Jim Forsythe

Doyle, yes I know what happen . as I knew  Lamar Hunt's Granddaughter. Also I lived 200 miles from the stadium. His Dallas team was called Texans, just like what Houston team is called now. I think that they had to get permission to name them Texans from the Hunt's, as they still owned the rights to the name.
  We were all excited to have a  pro team. The 1969  Super Bowl win was exciting.   At a football game in High School , we played near Kanas City in 1967 , Willie Lanier presented the homecoming Queen, her crown.  Doyle I'm sure you remember Willie . What a memory .

Carlos Ponce

Andy, Trump spoke what millions were thinking. He 's in touch with the average Joe.

Andy Brown

Hahahahaha! O M MFN G!! We are talking about Donald J Trump right? Golden everting, Trump Tower, YOU’RE FIRED, my daddy loaned me 1M and that’s it Donald Trump? In touch with the average Joe? Okay. Sure thing, Carlos.

Carlos Ponce

The Average Joe voted for him, Andy.

Andy Brown

I’m average. I didn’t vote for him.

Jim Forsythe

Maybe he was thinking   He 's touching the average Josephine

Andy Brown

If even millions were thinking it (maybe a few million ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) the protests were ending. It would not have been an issue if Trump would have just kept his average Joe mouth shut. But he didn’t. He couldn’t avoid playing up to his crowd filled of Trump voters to get some cheap ass applause. And because he did here we are. Wow.

Carlos Ponce

Were the protests ending? It started with one then grew and grew. With Trump, protesters turned their attention to him and you see what happened.
Ever heard the expression, "biting the hand that feeds you"? According to the Winston group, the NFL is losing its popularity. Core fans have dropped their favorable ratings from 73% to 42%.

Andy Brown

He made the problem he was complaining about exponentially worse! It was beyond stupid. It was Trumptonian. LOL.

Andy Brown

Yes. They were ending.

Carlos Ponce

Not really since it was spreading to high school sports and youth football.

Jim Forsythe

Some people only believe in polls when  it is convenient, then it's the Winston group .

Carlos Ponce

It depends on the DEMOGRAPHICS, Jim.
Haven't I always posted "check the DEMOGRAPHICS"?

Jim Forsythe


the Winston group
The poll was of 1,000 registered voters. 
Targeting males 34-54, which make up 40% of the average NFL potenial fan base,  leaving out the other 60%, including Women.

Carlos Ponce

Jim, that age group and gender are listed by the NFL as "favorable" for a reason. They're the targeted audience for NFL merchandise, advertisements.

Jim Forsythe

"Jim, that age group and gender are listed by the NFL as "favorable" for a reason" No you are thinking of the Winston group.
The NFL's has done a large amount of  research, and found that the old why of thinking about who is their target audience is not true anymore, it's not just one group , but spread over many groups.

The NFL's target audience is diversified in order for the NFL to gain popularity and revenue. They NFL's target market is complex because it includes people of all ages, races, genders, and socioeconomic backgrounds. However, there are specific demographics that the NFL may use to define certain audiences: -
- Women 18-49
  Men 18-49
- Kids 17 and under
- Baby Boomers
-  Household income of $50,000+ 
Analysts took a look at who was watching football and found that just over 40% of fans were women, and the NFL wasn’t doing much to target this huge opportunity. According to this research conducted by the NFL and Nielsen, more women watched Super Bowl XLIV than watched the Academy Awards in 2010. They also found that over 45 million women watch NFL games each weekend. These are amazing numbers, and the single reason why the NFL decided to expand their marketing efforts
In 2010, the NFL  invested over $10 million into a new campaign that aimed at expanding audience reach to female fans. The budget was spent on an entirely new clothing line and products targeting women, new commercials, and a new website. It was integrated marketing at its best.
• The number of American women participating in fantasy football doubled in 2011, according to Ipsos Public Affairs, which works with the Fantasy Sports Trade Association.
Marketing experts say women are a prized demographic for the NFL because of their value to advertisers. Ann Bastianelli, senior lecturer of marketing at Indiana University's Kelley School of Business, said 70 percent of "important family decisions" are made by women.


Craig Lindberg

Well Andy, as you will see over and over, what a Democrat thinks is stupid generally ends up being successful, and this is no exception. Trump has the NFL bent over his knee and they are begging him to stop spanking.

Carlos Ponce

Jim posts: "Marketing experts say women are a prized demographic for the NFL because of their value to advertisers."
Women may be a prized demographic but most women I know would rather do something else. And quoting stats of women participating in "fantasy football" is irrelevant to actual game viewership. Joe Namath said it could be because of the tight pants the players of today wear are considered sexy. [rolleyes]
In their attempt to expand the market they're loosing their key demographic.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: " According to the Winston group, the NFL is losing its popularity. "

Who? The Winston Group? I have followed the polls for years and I have never heard of them. And since when did you suddenly start believing in polls, Carlos? I can't count the number of times you said they were worthless.

Mark Aaron

Craig: "Well Andy, as you will see over and over, what a Democrat thinks is stupid generally ends up being successful, and this is no exception."

You mean like "trickle down economics?"

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "Women may be a prized demographic but most women I know would rather do something else."

You clearly don't know many Texas women, or Hispanic women then. They are the most hardcore NFL fans I know of. But don't let me stop you from embarrassing yourself further, Carlos, or showing the lengths you will go to to try to make a bogus point.

Jim Forsythe

Football is a time when people get away from it all. It's not a time to think about politics. Most want to eat, drink beer, and talk about their team. The following is from some people that were interviewed, that just want to enjoy the game and tailgating.

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. — In the expansive Gillette Stadium parking lot, with sausages sizzling on the grill and beers icing in the cooler, football fans here resented the intrusion of politics into their Sunday afternoon tailgating traditions.
“Football is such an escape, no one should be politicizing it,” said Laurie Flynn, 28, who works in marketing in Boston. Her family and friends, who arrived at 7:30 in the morning for the 1 p.m. kickoff of the Patriots’ game, started with mimosas as they set up their grill and put out the Buffalo chicken dip.
Je’anna Pulistar, 29 of Lindenhurst, N.Y., said, “I understand that the national anthem is important, but at the same time, what other time is there to stand up together for something you believe in?”
Colleen Channer, who was walking through the parking lot, said of Mr. Trump, “Can stupid get stupider?” She said the president should not be favoring one group of people over another. “He’s supposed to be neutral and he’s not.”
In Charlotte, at Bank of America Stadium, Keith Watson, who was tailgating with his family, thought Mr. Trump’s comments were just plain dumb. “He’s more about division than coming together,” he said.
Mr. Watson, who was in the military last year when Colin Kaepernick, then a San Francisco 49ers quarterback, first began kneeling as a protest, said he did not have a problem with it.

And from a active military personal. .Also at FOXBOROUGH.
“As far as I’m concerned, that’s why I’m in the military, to give him the right to express himself any way he wants to, short of yelling ‘fire!’ in a crowded theater,” he said.
“Kneeling as a protest is unobtrusive, nonviolent,” he said. “It’s a silent protest. Silent but visual.”

This is from a Trump voter at the parking lot.
Mel Casa, 74, who owns a hair salon, and his son Robert, 52, who served in the Air Force and works with computers, had rolled out an American flag on their tailgate.
The father said he voted for Mr. Trump but regretted it because the president “is a bully and has no filter when he speaks.” And this time, he said, as he puffed on a big Dominican cigar, Mr. Trump had “really gone overboard.” He said it was ludicrous to expect that 70,000 people would walk out of Gillette Stadium if players went down on their knees.


Carlos Ponce

Jim, rather selective since millions expressed a vie contrary to what you posted.

Jim Forsythe

They are Football fans, just because you do not like the NFL,  they do. Please do not watch, if you do not like the NFL.
People that enjoy the game will continue to do so. If you want to, go to a game in Houston and protest outside the stadium.
See how many people will love your  protest. Complaining about it without action,will gain nothing.

Carlos Ponce

Jim, if they want to protest against the police then they should go protest outside a police station as they did in Texas City. I just wonder if the sight of police protecting the stadium, audience and players upsets them???

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "He 's in touch with the average Joe. "

LOL! The only people Trump is in touch with are the know-nothing cognitive dissonant Tea Partiers. He is at about 34% in most polls now and still falling. Worst ratings in the polls' histories. Cue Carlos claiming all polls are wrong. LOL!

Mark Aaron

Andy: The Sunday after Trump's comments there were hundreds protesting. Good thing you can count on you're boy to stir the pot. LMAO!

And to add insult to injury viewership has been up as people tune in to see what the players are going to do during the anthem. LOL!

Andy Brown

*your boy

Steve Fouga

I enjoy professional football, so I'll continue to watch. In fact, I'll be watching some games via my NFL Sunday Ticket subscription.

Although I stand for the anthem at live events, I will remain seated while watching in my own home. Or more likely I'll grab a snack and something to drink. [cool]

Jim Forsythe

Steve  , if you would , see if they broadcast on your NFL Sunday Ticket subscription shows playing the anthem. 
They did not show it during the Texan Chiefs game (NBC). This may be how they are going to handle it.

Jim Forsythe

CBS did not show the playing of the  national anthem tonight. Must be they way they are going to handle it.

Emile Pope

If the people complaining about the protests were as outraged by the reason they are protesting, there would be no need for the protests. And the fact that people would rather quash the protests than address the problem speaks volumes. And makes those "outraged Americans" part of the problem.

Carlos Ponce

Police don't want to kill anybody. I wish Officer Emile Pope GPD had taught you that but he was taken when you were young. Almost all of the police involved in shootings have been no-billed by a Grand Jury or acquitted by a court of law. Only a few have been found guilty and they serve their sentences. Justice has been dealt. Mourn for those killed but also mourn for the police officers killed in the line of duty.

Craig Lindberg

Emilie, I see you're learning from predictable Mark. Take a simple concept and flip it on its head so you can argue emotion rather than logic. Why is it that when someone you agree with protests it's protest but when someone you don't agree with protests it's quashing protest? My right to protest the inappropriate time and place of their protest is as fundamental as their right to protest. Why is it that libs only think they have the right to protest? Unless you are doing something illegal, you aren't quashing anything. You are winning because more people agree with your position.

Steve Fouga

I haven't heard nearly as much about the protests of the 60s as I would have expected, as they relate to the NFL protests. The 60s protests showed both how effective public protest can be -- in the long run -- AND how long that run has to be, to sway public opinion and change national policy.

For those who haven't already seen it, I suggest "The Vietnam War: A Film by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick, a 10-part series already shown and still showing on KUHT, Ch 8, PBS. Besides providing a powerful and moving history of the war, it highlights some of the notable protests of the period and describes their cumulative effects. Protests absolutely DID change both opinion and policy on the war, minority rights, women's rights, LGBT rights, and the environment. It took most of the 60s and part of the 70s to do it.

We'll see whether the NFL protests will spread, or shrivel. Polling is all over the place on the issue, depending on how the questions are asked. My sense is that a slight majority is sympathetic to the cause, and a slight majority is unsympathetic to the actual kneeling during the anthem.

Allison Buchtien

The only reason they even started showing the anthem portion of NFL games recently was because of Trump. He should be the we boycott!

Carlos Ponce

Allison, I don't watch NFL but I believe showing the anthem part of NFL games with players standing at attention started in 2009. Wasn't Obama president then?
"Singing the national anthem before National Football League games has been ongoing for 'decades,' said NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy."
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/sep/25/short-history-national-anthem-and-sports/
Televising it has been up to the networks. Usually done for a top name entertainer, always during Super Bowls. More profitable to show commercials at the time if there is a non-top name singer, performer.
These were televised before Trump became president:
The list includes Al Hirt, Charley Pride, Diana Ross, Barry Manilow, Neil Diamond, Herb Alpert, Billy Joel, Whitney Houston, Aaron Neville, Garth Brooks, Natalie Cole, Vanessa Williams, Luther Vandross, Jewel, Cher, Faith Hill, Back Street Boys, Mariah Carey, Dixie Chicks, Beyonce, Aretha Franklin, Christina Aguilera, Lady Gaga

Allison Buchtien

I don't watch either.

Jim Forsythe

Playing the national anthem before national sports games started for very specific historical reasons — the need to get the public to help the war effort during World Wars I and II. When pro football started in 1920, the playing of the anthem was part of the game.
 In 2009 the NFL did start having all players on the field, and ready for the anthem. Before this time many were on the field and ready for the anthem, and  it was broadcast by TV.
The Super bowl half time acts are selected and hired by the NFL's selection committee as is the anthem singer . The singers and or band for the anthem, for most regular games is usually provide by the home team. 
Don't forget, Left Shark

Carlos Ponce

Jim posted: "Playing the national anthem before national sports games started for very specific historical reasons..."
What's wrong with showing patriotism? The National Anthem has been played before high school games for a reason. It's part of the learning process. It's now time to show the world a UNITED America. Terrorist groups probably show videos of pro-players taking a knee or raising a fist in recruitment videos to show potential members that America is nothing to fear since the people don't believe in their country. With all that is wrong in this world; hurricanes, earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars, crazed gunmen, moral decline, standing for the pledge shows unity behind those ideals we hold dear in this country. It shows respect for those who fought and died for this country. Not standing for the pledge does send a message - a very BAD message. If they want to protest, let them but NOT during the pledge. To me that's like someone spitting in their mama's face.

Jim Forsythe

What's wrong with showing patriotism?  The reason the anthem was first played at a pro football game, was for the war effort, is this not showing patriotism ?
"The National Anthem has been played before high school games for a reason. It's part of the learning process.". We are talking about the NFL not high school and the NFL stills plays it..
"If they want to protest, let them but NOT during the pledge". Part of a protest, is the  protesters choose the place and time
Not standing for the pledge does send a message of unity by the players. 
"It's now time to show the world a UNITED America". If a Terrorist groups looks at the USA,  Senate, House ,President and the NFL, they will think we are not united because of the NFL, and not any other reason? Trying to tie Terrorist groups to the protest, is reaching. Our freedom depends on the NFL?
" Terrorist groups probably show videos of pro-players taking a knee or raising a fist in recruitment videos to show potential members that America is nothing to fear since the people don't believe in their country "   Just because someone protest, does not make them un-American, after 911 we were united, and if something like this happened now , the response would be the same.. Men and Women have died for the right for every person to be able to have a voice,  which includes protesting.

The person protesting also must understand what the results of their protest, may lead to. They may lose their jobs or even their lives'. The NFL players may lose their jobs, but are willing to still take the chance. Other have done the same as far as taking risk.
Remember why  "4 dead in Ohio" happen, and the song "Ohio", and  why it was banned in some parts of our country.
Neil Young was willing to write and sing it (with Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young)  because he felt so strong about what happen. He knew it might be the end to his career.

It looks like the networks will not show the anthem on TV, the  last two games I watched , did not.
Also in the near future, the NFL , the owners, and players are going to work on a different way to do this.

Carlos Ponce

"The reason the anthem was first played at a pro football game, was for the war effort"
You must be writing about World War II.
I remember an episode of Happy Days where Richie and Potsie stood up up in a theater and began singing the National Anthem. What started out as part of a gang initiation turned patriotic when the entire auditorium audience stood and joined in.

Emile Pope

Not their job to protest when you think that it's appropriate. To ignore the reason for the protest and instead attack the protest makes their protests completely justified. Sorry if the murder of American citizens doesn't concern you as much as one person taking a knee during an anthem...

Jim Forsythe

"The reason the anthem was first played at a pro football game, was for the war effort" You must be writing about World War II. 
It should have read. 
It only became America’s unofficial national anthem in 1916, when President Woodrow Wilson ordered its use at military and other national ceremonies  During the seventh-inning stretch of game one of the 1918 World Series, the band erupted into "The Star-Spangled Banner." . When Pro football started in 1920, they carried this as part of their league.

Part of a protest, is the  protesters choose the place and time.
If it was up to one one's being protested against, no protest would happen


Andy Brown

Craig wrote: "Well Andy, as you will see over and over, what a Democrat thinks is stupid generally ends up being successful, and this is no exception."

I am not a member of any political party. I most likely would have voted for Kasich had the Rep primary voters not fallen for the conman we have now. And I didn't say it was stupid. I said it was beyond stupid. :)

"Trump has the NFL bent over his knee and they are begging him to stop spanking."

What a pleasant visual to wake up to. Thanks, Craig.

Carlos Ponce

Jim, it's obvious you just don't get it.

Jim Forsythe

What's to get. You want to restrict where someone can protest    You do not like the NFL, and was not happy when some players stayed in the lockerroom. You want the NFL to run their BUSSINESS like Carlos would like, not the way they think is best for them.
If they go bankrupt, what's it to you. You keep talking about how their numbers are down, why do you care?
The number of protesters was way down, when our President decided it would be a good idea to go to war with the NFL.
When he called them SOB's , it was not good.
Now the numbers have increased to bigger numbers, because of what he did.
It looks like the NFL and the Networks, that broadcast games will not show the anthem, but you are not a fan, so you will not see it live.
If they decide to stop playing thr anthem, will that make you happy? It would stop the kneeling, because it would not be played.

Carlos Ponce

Let me repeat, you just don't get it.

Jim Forsythe

If they decide to stop playing thr anthem, will that make you happy? It would stop the kneeling, because it would not be played.

Carlos Ponce

They should play the anthem. They can kneel all they want but not during the anthem. Doing so proves what Elvin Bethea said about today's NFL: “The game is like pro wrestling. I guess that’s why I don’t watch it. All show, little substance.”

Jim Forsythe

What does Elvin Bethea's quote from 2003 have to do with the NFL today? You keep bring up players and coaches from the past, when the game was different than today. . 
The flag code does not say, the anthem must be played at sporting events.It's not illegal to, not stand, not salute or not have hand over heart. If it was, the VP's group  at the New England game may have violated it ,as 3 out of six may not have saluted or had hand over heart.. I'm not sure the President knows what he should do when "To the Color" is played., he should  know since he went to New York Military Academy prep school.


Carlos Ponce

Elvin Bethea shows that the quality of the NFL has declined. They may run faster, throw and make more touchdowns, make more tackles, win more games, etc. but many are not men to emulate. There were bad boys in the past - but not this many.

Jim Forsythe

  Elvin t Bethea  NFL Defensive End with Houston Oilers (1968-1983). played for head coaches Bum Philips and Sid Gillman. He was on the team when the this happen .This is a first hand account, from Carlos Ponce.. 
." They tore the town and university apart. Players went after college co-eds and high school girls with relish. The age of the high school girls did not matter to them. They were "PRO FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and felt that alone made them "desirable". They tore up the dorm rooms they were assigned to. I stayed at White Hall but had t one would o wait to get my room. The accordion doors on the closets were in pieces, the restroom door removed and used as a poker table. Desk drawers were in pieces. The University then converted an older dorm, Adams Hall into the Oilers dorm. With new oversized beds, etc, their newness did not last. While "officially" the city and university were upset to see them eventually leave, it was GOOD RIDDANCE in reality"
Maybe you are thinking about Snake Stabler or Broadway Joe, and do not forget the Juice (O.J. Simpson) as men to emulate.

Just as any business may have people that one would not want to emulate, the players of today are as a group, are good men.
Deshaun Watson First year starting Quarterback Houston Texans , gave all of his first starting paycheck to 3 family's that lost everything in Hurricane Harvey.
JJ Watt Most people know some about  J.J., but do you know about the three Berry children, and how has helped them.
Larry Fitzgerald - Winner  of the Walter NFL Man of the year 2016
Eli Manning -  Winner of the Walter Payton NFL Man of the year 2016
Rob Gronkowski  If you do not know him ,you have no idea about players in the NFL. . You do know Gronk
Many, many more that are on the same level for doing good.


Jim Forsythe

,Carlos Ponce Oct 13, 2017 2:35am
Jim posts: "Marketing experts say women are a prized demographic for the NFL because of their value to advertisers."
Women may be a prized demographic but most women I know would rather do something else. And quoting stats of women participating in "fantasy football" is irrelevant to actual game viewership. Joe Namath said it could be because of the tight pants the players of today wear are considered sexy.
In their attempt to expand the market they're loosing their key demographic.

"Women may be a prized demographic but most women I know would rather do something else". Is this how the Winston group did it's polling. Called up men and ask , do women watch football? "but most women I know would rather do something else" How about the men you know, they all watch NFL football? Maybe the people you know are not NFL fans!
Quoiting Joe Namath about demographics in 2017, you do know he retired in 1977 ? Did you ever see him play in person?

"fantasy football" is irrelevant to actual game viewership " is wrong. How many fantasy football drafts have you been to? People that precipitate in the fantasy league are some of the most die hard NFL fans. People that precipitate in the fantasy football leagues are almost 100%, when it comes to actual game viewership , this includes Women . Leagues ,have viewer parties for each NFL game, where they will watch all the games in the NFL that day, up to 14 games on Sunday. They sometimes have multiple TV's playing at the same time.In addition to the social aspect provided by the fantasy teams, big money is also involved. , the FSTA found that $1.18 billion changes hands between players through pools each year.
Team owners, of a fantasy football team sometimes spend Hundreds  if not Thousands of dollars to built their teams thru the draft. Then they spend a lot of time and money researching players to be able to make trades during the football season.
. They subscribe to fantasy football publications that cost a lot of money.Sports talk radio have fantasy leagues specialist on their programs, to take callers questions, on who to play, and what trades they should make.
Fantasy Football is another fan-driven industry that is completely reliant on the proper functioning of the NFL.
According to research from the Fantasy Sports Trade Association, 33 million Americans participate in Fantasy Football and the industry adds about 2 million new players every year.
Research provided by Ipsos found that Americans spend an estimated $800 million annually on all fantasy sports media products.

"In their attempt to expand the market they're loosing their key demographic" If you are not including women, you are stuck in the past. If you have been to a NFL in the last few years, you would have seen a lot of women , with a lot of NFL merchandise. 


Steve Fouga

My wife enjoys watching the NFL and most other sports. Her focus is different from mine, though. Sure, she cares who wins, but she's more likely to sympathize over injuries, salary disputes, roster cuts -- and protests. She sees the players not so much as the "grown men" they legally are, but the "kids" they actually are, about the same age as our own children, making their way in the world and making their own choices for the first time.

Neither of us understands the hubbub over whether the players should be allowed to take a knee during the anthem. Of course they should, and any blowback should be directed at them. They made a choice; they should bear the consequences. Maybe they'll change the world; maybe they'll lose their endorsements. Lesson learned either way. [cool]

Carlos Ponce

Steve posts: "She sees the players not so much as the "grown men" they legally are, but the "kids" they actually are..."
Good for her enjoying NFL. I was at SHSU the years the Houston Oilers used Huntsville and the university for their training camp. Under Coach Sid Gilman there was a curfew, rules for interacting with the locals and university, rules for dorm usage. No problems.Then Coach Bum Phillips came in. He felt he could not tell grown men how to act. They tore the town and university apart. Players went after college co-eds and high school girls with relish. The age of the high school girls did not matter to them. They were "PRO FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and felt that alone made them "desirable". They tore up the dorm rooms they were assigned to. I stayed at White Hall but had to wait to get my room. The accordion doors on the closets were in pieces, the restroom door removed and used as a poker table. Desk drawers were in pieces. The University then converted an older dorm, Adams Hall into the Oilers dorm. With new oversized beds, etc, their newness did not last. While "officially" the city and university were upset to see them eventually leave, it was GOOD RIDDANCE in reality.
But Bum did enforce his rules in actual games:
"Well, ya know, I don’t think you’re supposed to get up and celebrate after you make a sack. That’s what they’re payin’ you to do. Same thing with a touchdown. If you score touchdown, you didn’t score that touchdown. You just carried the ball across the goal line. Somebody had to pass protect to get you the ball and a quarterback had to throw it. Or if it’s a running play, somebody had to block that hole or you couldn’t go through it. I don’t believe scoring deserves a celebration. That’s a team thing. It doesn’t belong to an individual. Even with a kick-off returner you say “Well, he does it all on his own.” Bull! You go back and look. He had some good blocks along the way. He may have made some great moves, like Billy Johnson would make, but try to take those other ten off the field then see how many he’ll return for a touchdown."
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-hollander/remembering-bum-phillips_b_4132396.html
On post touchdown celebrations Bum told Earl Campbell to "act like you've been there."
Oiler Hall of Famer Elvin Bethea, said of today’s NFL, “The game is like pro wrestling. I guess that’ why I don’t watch it. All show, so little substance.”

Jim Forsythe

You do know, the person you are quoiting ( Elvin Bethea ) was on the team that tore up SHSU?

Jack Cross

If we didn't have political correctness thing like this circus of taking a knee to the National Anthem would never happened in the first place.
This argument is over or soon will be. The bottom line.
TRUMP WON THAT ARGUMENT
And
He will win another argument he just introduced
It's MERRY CHRISTMAS, not Merry Winter Holiday.,

Carlos Ponce

Yes, Jim, I know. With all he saw going on in the 70s, he looks at 21st Century NFL and sees things have gotten FAR WORSE. An NFL Hall of famer giving up on watching pro football should tell you something.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "An NFL Hall of famer giving up on watching pro football should tell you something."

That he is like you, demented?

Jim Forsythe

Far worse than a whole team acting as you describe, that he may have been part of ? Texans head coach, kicked off 3 players for not following team rules, what they die was not even close to what you describe that a whole team did. As far as watching pro football , he may not want to watch because he can no longer play. He may be bitter about his medical issues or he may not be able to remember.

Elvin Bethea pulled up to a stop sign not far from his home with his wife in the car. When he didn't continue — there was no traffic coming from either direction — she wanted to know what was wrong.
"I had to ask her, 'Where are we going?' " Bethea said. "I had no idea. I'd completely forgot. She said, 'Now you've scared me. You need to see somebody about this.' "
He soon made the first of many visits to a neurologist.
"I've got so many doctors, you wouldn't believe it," said the Hall of Fame defensive end, who guesses - he's lost count - he has had 25 operations relating to his football career. "Sometimes I feel like I live at the damn hospital. I go to the doctor at least three times a month, for one thing or another."

Carlos Ponce

It could be more than a senior moment. At least the man is under medical care. And he has problems other than memory loss - prostate cancer (under remission at the time the article was written), knee replacement and hearing loss. These happen to non-NFL people at his age too, Jim.

Jim Forsythe

He may have CTE, the percent of NFL player that have it is high.  
“People want to make this just Alzheimer’s disease or aging and not really a disease,” according to McKee. “I think there’s fewer of those people, but that’s still one of our major hurdles.”
.
Researchers with the Department of Veterans Affairs and Boston University have now identified the degenerative disease known as chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE, in 96 percent of NFL players that they’ve examined and in 79 percent of all football players. The disease is widely believed to stem from repetitive trauma to the head, and can lead to conditions such as memory loss, depression and dementia.
In total, the lab has found CTE in the brain tissue in 131 out of 165 individuals who, before their deaths, played football either professionally, semi-professionally, in college or in high school.

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