After reflecting on Roberto Torres' column ("I'm hoping the DNC learned a lasting lesson in 2016," The Daily News, Nov. 6) whom I agree with, and listening to election returns on Tuesday, and Donald Trump's speech (if you can call it that) to the South Korea National Assembly, I had a few thoughts:

First, When Trump was describing the horrific quality of life and human rights violations of North Korea, I found myself thinking those descriptions could as easily have been describing the suffering underway in Puerto Rico; both ironic and hypocritical.

Secondly, Both Republicans and Democrats need to see the Nov. 7, 2016, election results as a referendum from the people. Listening to analysts and pundits agonizing over what strategy they need to take to capture or re-capture control is an incorrect response.

Both must abandon legacy tactics and do what seems so logical — listen to what the people of this country are saying, represent them as they were elected to do, and stop referring to us as statistics whose lives, well-being and ability to control at the poll are treated as secondary to their political ambitions.

"Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand."

Mike Mantell

League City

Locations

(95) comments

Carlos Ponce

" I found myself thinking those descriptions could as easily have been describing the suffering underway in Puerto Rico".
The suffering is similar but the reasons are not. The North Koreans suffer due to their evil dictator Kim Jong Un. While he sits in his palace well fed his people go hungry.
Puerto Rico people suffer due an act of nature. But they also suffer because of the local government actions from those they voted into office. The failing infrastructure was there before the storm. What did the Federal government do? FEMA was there with thousands of personnel and relief supplies before, during and after the storm hit. Yet the mayor of San Juan is pictured standing in front of pallets of relief supplies criticizing President Trump for lack of aid.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/21752/undelivered-puerto-rico-mayor-gives-press-emily-zanotti
The picture is from MSNBC.

Jim Forsythe

This is what we provide for all the people in need in Puerto Rican?
On Wednesday, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) reported that 42 percent of the population is without drinkable water and over 10,000 people are living in 161 shelters. 
This is what we got last night: four pallets of water, three pallets of meals and 12 pallets of baby food — which I gave them to the people of Comerio, where people are drinking out of a creek," she said, reported by NBC news.

Jim Forsythe

As a country, we are the country that help countries in need, when they have humanitarian emergencies!
Now we are the one receiving aid that is usually reserved for the poorest of the poor.
We have no excuse for this.

“The US has more than enough resources to mobilize an emergency response, said Maxman, “but has failed to do so in a swift and robust manner.” 

Puerto Rico will receive humanitarian crisis relief from the poverty group Oxfam, which has slammed the Trump administration's "slow and inadequate" response to the unfolding crisis.
Oxfam International typically provides aid to the world's most impoverished regions but now says it will help Puerto Rico, a rare rebuke from the charity—and one that equates the U.S. response to that of a Third World or war-torn nation such as Syria or Bangladesh. 
"Oxfam rarely responds to humanitarian emergencies in the U.S. and other wealthy countries, but as the situation in Puerto Rico worsens and the federal government's response continues to falter, we have decided to step in," Oxfam America President Abby Maxman said in a statement.

Oxfam has monitored the response in Puerto Rico closely, and we are outraged at the slow and inadequate response the US Government has mounted,” said Oxfam America’s president Abby Maxman. “Oxfam rarely responds to humanitarian emergencies in the US and other wealthy countries, but as the situation in Puerto Rico worsens and the federal government’s response continues to falter, we have decided to step in.”

Oxfam is pursuing a two-pronged approach:
work with Puerto Rican leaders to advocate with Congress and federal agencies for a better, faster, and more inclusive response to the crisis, and
Oxfam will channel vital resources and give technical support to the right people on the front lines, including the local government and local organizations that were there as this emergency struck and that will be there for the long road to recovery.  
We know first responders and agencies have been working around the clock and are stretched thin after a string of disasters. We are calling for more support and resources so they, along with local groups, can scale up the response and reach the most vulnerable people who are still in the midst of a real crisis.
“The US has more than enough resources to mobilize an emergency response, said Maxman, “but has failed to do so in a swift and robust manner.”
Help us meet the most critical needs of people struggling to survive in Puerto Rico

Jim Forsythe

What was the delay?
Trump administration Homeland Security officials also faced a backlash over their response to a request to waive the Jones Act, a near-century-old law that requires all goods shipped to the island travel on vessels owned and operated by Americans.
Officials in Puerto Rico claimed the law was hindering aid and eight members of Congress sent a letter to the Department of Homeland Security asking for the waiver to be granted, as was the case in Texas and Florida following Hurricanes Harvey and Irma.
Following a request from the governor of Puerto Rico, Trump said his administration was "thinking about" waiving the law on Wednesday.

On Thursday, White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders announced
the waiver was being granted at Gov. Rossello's request.

Jim Forsythe

09/29/2017
About 40 helicopters are delivering aid, but that’s compared to 300 helicopters the U.S. dispatched for Haiti’s 2010 disaster. On Vieques, a neighboring Puerto Rican island, its 9,300 residents have only gotten water delivered in the last week.

Gary Miller

In North Korea the people suffer while political leaders live in comfort on the wealth created by the people.
In Puerto Rico the people suffer while political leaders live in comfort on the wealth created by the people.
Not all that much difference between Democrats in Puerto Rico and Socialists in Korea.

Jim Forsythe

You do know that Trump is the top leader of Puerto Rico, and does live in comfort
Also the citizens of Korea are not USA citizen's and most citizens of Puerto Rico, are citizens of the USA.
Do you only want to help Republicans, or do you want to help USA citizens?

This is a good news story?
Trump's criticism of Cruz (San Juan mayor) came after her widely-publicized rebuke Friday of acting Homeland Security Secretary Elaine Duke's calling the situation in Puerto Rico, with relief efforts progressing, "a good news story."
Duke on Friday afternoon added to her assessment earlier in the week, saying that while she is "proud" of the federal response to the destruction on the island, the situation on the ground is still "not satisfactory." 
But, prior to the acting secretary's remarks Friday afternoon, Cruz slammed her earlier comments. "This is not a good news story. This is a people-are-dying story,"  
"Maybe from where she's standing, it's a good news story. When you are drinking from a creek, it's not a good news story. When you don't have food for a baby, it's not a good news story," Cruz said. "I'm sorry, but that really upsets me and frustrates me."
The mayor also said Friday that she had a "message" for Trump, asking him to "step up" relief efforts for the "entire island of Puerto Rico," not just the capital of San Juan.
Using water contaminated by raw sewage, because that's all they have. 
As of Nov.7
“To date, hundreds of thousands of Puerto Ricans do not have access to running water; meanwhile, wastewater treatment plants are relying on generator power, and a significant fraction are not operational,” . “Left with no other options, many Puerto Ricans are bathing, washing clothes, and drinking from unsafe water—including streams and rivers contaminated by raw sewage.”

Nearly two months after the Category 4 Hurricane Maria barreled into Puerto Rico, 60 percent of Puerto Ricans still don’t have power.
That number temporarily surged to 80 percent on Thursday morning, when a power line repaired by Whitefish Energy failed—wiping out power for millions of Puerto Ricans. Friday morning, the number appeared to have rebounded back to 60 percent without power, according to Puerto Rico Electric Power Authority’s status update.


Carlos Ponce

It is well known that the San Juan Mayor was directed by the DNC to bad mouth Trump despite evidence to the contrary. Puerto Rico's governor praised Trump and Federal efforts to help Puerto Rico.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [ It is well known that the San Juan Mayor was directed by the DNC to bad mouth Trump despite evidence to the contrary. ]

No it is not well known Carlos. Show us a credible link proving it.

Carlos Ponce

"The Mayor of San Juan, who was very complimentary only a few days ago, has now been told by the Democrats that you must be nasty to Trump." Tweet from Trump
PROVE it isn't true.
The San Juan mayor wore a T displaying "NASTY" for Univision but covered it up for MSNBC with a jacket but you could still see part of the T-shirt.
But Yulin Cruz said "I was asking for help. I wasn't saying anything nasty about the President." This while wearing a T-shirt with "NASTY" on it?
A Puerto Rican Police officer said, "I need to pass this along because the stuff that is being brought from the U.S. is not being distributed. They are not allowing the Puerto Rican people to receive the donations…The mayor, Carmen Yulin, is not allowing anyone to distribute. What us puerto ricans need is that the U.S. armed forces to come in and distribute the aid."
Snopes hasn't rated this. They are still trying to figure out a Liberal spin out of it.
https://www.snopes.com/is-san-juan-mayor-relief-efforts-trump-look-bad/
"But are people dying?" Puerto Rican Geraldo Rivera asked. "I've been traveling around, I don't see people dying. I spoke to the doctors, they say they saw 53 patients and they had a person who was septic, but nobody dying."

Jim Forsythe

Trump added Cruz was “very complimentary only a few days ago,” but “has now been told by the Democrats that you must be nasty to Trump.”
I was a ‘nasty mayor,'” she said. Not that Trump was nasty.
San Juan Mayor Carmen Yulin Cruz wore a black t-shirt emblazoned with the word “nasty” Wednesday during an interview with Univision’s Jorge Ramos in response to President Trump’s tweet criticizing the politician.
Cruz told Ramos she wore the shirt because “it was one of the expressions that the president used to describe me. I was a ‘nasty mayor,'” 

Many are at risk!
Acute diarrheal diseases are a big concern and are commonly seen after flooding,” he said, adding that mosquito-borne diseases may also pose a threat due to the abundance of standing water from floods.
But he also noted that another threat – a life-threatening infection known as leptospirosis – could also put the lives of many at risk.
In fact, Puerto Rico Governor Ricardo A. Rossello said on Wednesday that health officials at the CDC have already begun investigating four recent deaths to determine whether the disease, which is rare in the United States, might be behind them. 

Did Geraldo Rivera go to the funeral home's and crematorium's. If he had , he may have had a belter grasp of the number that has  died. 
In addition to the lack of electricity, impassable roads have made it so people can't get to their medical appointments, she said, and others are getting treatment like dialysis once a week instead of three times a week.“Those have to be considered causes of death cased by the hurricane,” she said.
 
"largely not being counted"
Puerto Rico Is Burning Its Dead, And We May Never Know How Many People The Hurricane Real number that  has died.         
People whose bodies are cremated are largely not being counted in the official death toll. The government says it’s the fault of funeral directors, while funeral directors say they’ve received no guidance from the government.

Just a small sample indicates the number may be in the thousands.
The funeral home and crematorium directors told said that they had received dozens of bodies of people who died of hurricane-related causes — just the cases from these two municipalities would potentially more than double the death toll if they were included. The Forensic Institute permitted the bodies of at least 42 potential hurricane victims to be burned, according to one crematorium director.
Puerto Rico’s safety department says the funeral and crematorium directors should send any potential hurricane-related victims to the institute before they’re burned — but a spokeswoman said they haven’t actually officially communicated that to them.

In Aguadilla, a municipality of around 60,000, the official death toll currently counts three fatalities from the hurricane: one person who drowned in flooding, one person who fell off his roof while trying to repair hurricane damage, and one person who died of a bone infection.
But staff at the only crematorium in the municipality, Crem del Caribe, said they were given permission by the forensic institute to cremate at least 42 bodies of other people who had died as a result of the hurricane. That included people who died due to a lack of oxygen supply, failure of dialysis and oxygen machines because of the lack of electricity, and people who died of heart attacks. (Seventy-five percent of the island still has no power, and questions are being raised about the firm contracted to fix it.)

In the nearby municipality of Mayagüez, there were no hurricane-related deaths, according to the official toll. That’s at odds with the number of cases received by local funeral homes.
Funeraria Fernandez received 13 bodies since the hurricane. They said at least six of those people died because of a lack of oxygen supply, and one died because of a dialysis machine not working, in addition to several heart attacks. Nine of those were cremated. Five were sent to the forensic institute for examination. None have been included in the death toll.
Another, Mayagüez Memorial, received 42 bodies since the hurricane, 10 of which were cremated with the forensic institute’s permission without an examination, according to a staff member there.


Carlos Ponce

Jim posted: "Did Geraldo Rivera go to the funeral home's and crematorium's. If he had , he may have had a belter grasp of the number that has died."
Are you saying the doctors lied to him? He went to the hospitals that were still operating and spoke to the doctors. Wouldn't that give him a grasp on what was going on? Geraldo had friends, relatives who live in Puerto Rico. I think he has a "grasp" of the situation.

Jim Forsythe

What I'm saying, is the hospitals were not seeing most of the dead, remember this was about the 3ed week of September when Rivera reported about the dead. . Some of the city's are still cut off from the rest of  Puerto Rico, and no way that Geraldo visited all of  Doctors ,in all of the city's and villages, at that time.
Most of the dead did not make it to the hospital. It has been reported that some are burying their dead in their back yard's , because they do not have the money, to bury them any other way.
For the health of the living, the dead must be taken care of.

He talked to doctors, that had 53 patients, and you believe that was the total for all of Puerto Rico.
Nowhere could I find that he visited hospital's. but he may have.
"But are people dying?" Rivera interrupted. "I've been traveling around, I don't see people dying. I spoke to the doctors, they say they saw 53 patients and they had a person who was septic, but nobody dying." he did not talk to funeral and crematorium directors. if he had, he would have had a different take on how many had died.

"People whose bodies are cremated are largely not being counted in the official death toll. "
"two municipalities would potentially more than double the death toll if they were included. "

Carlos Ponce

There were only a few hospitals open for business, Jim.

Jim Forsythe

"There were only a few hospitals open for business, Jim."  That's the reason for the under reporting.
Geraldo , had no way of knowing the total number of people that had died, he was just commenting on what he had seen.
To hold up what Geraldo reported, as proof of how many have died,does not equal ,what happen

Carlos Ponce

Jim posts: "he was just commenting on what he had seen" . He's a reporter, Jim. He knows who to ask, where to go, especially since Puerto Rico is his home turf.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: ["The Mayor of San Juan, who was very complimentary only a few days ago, has now been told by the Democrats that you must be nasty to Trump." Tweet from Trump]

So you have nothing but Trump's word for it, which is worth about as much as a warm bucket of spit. In other words a lie. Poor Carlos, duped again.

Carlos Ponce

Jim repeated some of the evidence including the mayor's wearing a "NASTY" T-shirt during interviews in honor of Hillary, Little Marky.

Jim Forsythe

The real issues is not how many died, but how to keep more from dying. 
But what are we doing to address the problems. here just a few. Food , water, shelter and the following.

"Puerto Rico was plunged into a new crisis Friday after a dam failed, triggering flash floods in a western swath of the island already ravaged by Hurricane Maria.
The breach at the Guajataca Dam, located about 68 miles west of San Juan, sent torrents of water rushing toward the towns of Isabella and Quebradillas."

Complicating Puerto Rico’s recovery is the island’s devastated economy

Excess standing water, lack of access to clean drinking water, and piles of debris are breeding grounds for waterborne and mosquito-borne diseases
“People are much more likely to be in contact with insects that can carry diseases like dengue,” And Zika, chikungunya, and yellow fever.

September 22, 2017
"The number of fatalities in the U.S. territory — still without electricity late Friday — is likely to rise as rescuers reach the island’s most remote areas". this was about the same time as Geraldo report .

"He knows who to ask, where to go, especially since Puerto Rico is his home turf." under normal circumstances that would be true. But when most of the Island was not open to traffic , he would not been able to access most parts of  Puerto Rico . Normal travel may not be able to happen in the near future . To suggests that Geraldo went to all the places in Puerto Rico that people are at, is not true, unless he backpacked in, or used a Helicopter.

"He knows who to ask, where to go." He did not talk to them on the phone, so he would have had to have seen them in person ,to report about them, and their conditions.
This is the only report that I found from Geraldo, about the deaths in Puerto Rico. If you have others, please provide.
"But are people dying?" Rivera interrupted. "I've been traveling around, I don't see people dying. I spoke to the doctors, they say they saw 53 patients and they had a person who was septic, but nobody dying."
He was reporting on what he saw and had heard from a few Doctors, who did not know, how many had died in all of Puerto Rico .
,

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [Jim repeated some of the evidence including the mayor's wearing a "NASTY" T-shirt during interviews in honor of Hillary, Little Marky.]

That shirt was worn after Trump called her nasty, not before. You have been duped again Carlos.

Carlos Ponce

Duped? No Confirmation she was being NASTY to Trump.
"The word 'nasty' was adopted last year by anti-Trump activists after Trump, then the Republican presidential nominee, called his Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton a 'nasty woman' during a debate. Since then, many activists have dubbed themselves 'nasty woman' as a way of identifying themselves as a feminist or as someone who opposes Trump’s agenda." - Huffington Post
Do you really think that Mayor Cruz had that "NASTY" T-shirt made AFTER Trump's tweet while her city and state had just endured a massive hurricane? If so it was a shameful waste of time and resources at a critical time.
After Harvey hit the island, you had time to get a T-shirt made, right Little Marky?

Jim Forsythe

The shirt looks like it may have come from Janet Jackson nasty tour, or fan club. 
Did she say she just had it made? Or are you jumping to conclusions?
She did not say Trump is nasty, so what is wrong with the shirt?

Carlos Ponce

Jim, the only Nasty Tour Concert Ts I could find online have a topless picture of her with someone behind her cupping her breasts.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [Do you really think that Mayor Cruz had that "NASTY" T-shirt made AFTER Trump's tweet while her city and state had just endured a massive hurricane? ]

Yes Carlos, she wore the shirt AFTER Trump had called her a 'nasty mayor.' You prove yourself a dupe yet again.

_"Ramos asked Yulín Cruz to explain why she was wearing a “Nasty” T-shirt, to which she responded, “One of the expressions that the president used to describe me… I was a ‘nasty mayor.'”"_

http://people.com/politics/san-juan-mayor-after-trump-called-her-nasty-mayor/

Carlos Ponce

I've already responded to that nonsense, Little Marky.

Jim Forsythe

"topless picture of her with someone behind her cupping her breasts' it was her husband.
Some shirts had been printed for her tour, from other sources then her tour,  that may be for sell.
Carmen Yulin Cruzmay may have had one made , as a lot of places have custom shirts for sell. Here are a few,that may not be form the tour. .

https://www.zazzle.com.au/nasty+tshirts

https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirts/nasty

https://www.amazon.com/BuzzTshirt-Nasty-Woman-T-shirt/dp/B01MFFJ9B7

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=nasty+t+shirt

http://www.cafepress.com/+nasty+t-shirts?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=msn&utm_campaign=40355761-d-c&utm_content=366729385-adid-77172004489060&utm_term=kwd-5647560238:loc-190

http://www.fairyseason.com/nasty-woman-t-shirt-g-27818?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Bing%20PA_US&utm_term=4575823797927788&utm_content=All%20Products

Carlos Ponce

None of the NASTY T-shirts are from Janet Jackson's Nasty tour as you originally posted but some do resemble Mayor Cruz's T-shirt. Considering the airport conditions I doubt if it was shipped to her following Trump's tweet or arrived with the relief supplies. Considering the circumstances she probably bought hers prior to the storm unless the DNC provided it to her.[wink]

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [I've already responded to that nonsense, Little Marky.]

You mean you were proved to be a gull yet again so now you will pretend otherwise. Let's review. You said: "It is well known that the San Juan Mayor was directed by the DNC to bad mouth Trump despite evidence to the contrary."

Your "proof" was the claim that she wore a t-shirt that said 'nasty' on it. But she only wore that shirt AFTER Trump had called her that. Trump started a fight with her because she was trying to look after her constituents amid the devastation of a major hurricane and asked for more help. Trump took that as an insult and acted like a baby in response. Now you want to dishonestly blame her for Trump acting like a petulant child.

Carlos Ponce

Little Marky, if you don't like my answer, too bad.

Jim Forsythe

I forgot to post one.
"nasty t-shirts are from Janet jackson's nasty tour"
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=nasty+t-shirts+are+from+janet+jackson%27s+nasty+tour&qpvt=NASTY+T-shirts+are+from+Janet+Jackson%27s+Nasty+tour&FORM=IGRE

Carlos Ponce

None of them look like the one worn by Mayor Cruz, Jim. Two come close but the font or color do not match what she wore.

Steve Fouga

Back to learning lessons, maybe the Republicans DID learn something from Trump's election. A growing number of Republicans in the Senate are denouncing Roy Moore, the Republican senatorial candidate from Alabama, for trying to date teenage girls when in his 30s! Even Sean Hannity hard a hard time defending him, though he gave it his all.

But wait! The RNC is still supporting him financially and on the the ground! He's running neck-and-neck with the Dem! Local pundits are betting he'll win!

Who knows WHAT the Republicans have learned... [cool]

Carlos Ponce

Steve, Sean is no hypocrite. He still says the same thing I posted earlier. If the evidence is there he should step down from the election. Unless that happens "no rush to judgement" is what Hannity has always said. And his hard hitting questions are typical. He hit Donald Trump with hard hitting questions as well.
There is only one piece of evidence and it was produced by the latest accuser. A yearbook signature: "To a sweeter more beautiful girl I could not say, 'Merry Christmas.' Christmas 1977 Love, Roy Moore DA, 12-22-77, Olde Hickory House."
Why a DA would sign a yearbook page for a teenage girl is beyond me. I've signed hundreds for teenage boys and girls but I was their teacher. And I keep it it short like: "Best of Luck in the future - Mr C Ponce".
I've seen dozens of yearbooks where a girl would rip out a yearbook page or obscure it if signed by someone who mistreated them. This one was kept.
Roy Moore's signature on the page does not match his signatures on record but that is not uncommon.

Jim Forsythe

Steve, this is how I see it playing out. The idea has already been floated.

The first step "Sen. Cory Gardner (Colo.), the chairman of the Senate GOP campaign arm, says the chamber should expel Moore if he wins the special election ."
After he wins ,this would happen , which is step 2
"replacing Alabama GOP Senate candidate Roy Moore with Attorney General Jeff Sessions.Sessions could then be appointed to his old Senate seat “when it becomes vacant,”

Carlos Ponce

Look for another woman to "reveal" allegations of sexual misconduct against Roy Moore just prior to the election, Jim, Steve, a Coup de grâce from the Leftist media. And this one will be far worse than the other allegations.

Jim Forsythe

Can not find any Senator that is backing Moore. Republican's are treating him as toxic,and do not want their name, assonated with him.
This will give the President a chance to get rid of Sessions, and keep a Republican in the Senate, if Moore can win!

"I have no reason to doubt these young women," Sessions told a House committee.
The likely replacement for Moore , if he win's ,would be Sessions.

Senators are held to the highest of standard, and the members of the Senate, do not think he meets the standard to be a Senator.

 Senate leader Mitch McConnell says he believes women who have accused Roy Moore of inappropriate sexual contact, says Moore "should step aside."

Jeff Flake of Arizona: “If this choice is between Roy Moore and a Democrat, a Democrat. … I would literally — if I were in Alabama — I would run to the polling place to vote for the Democrat.”


Rand Paul of Kentucky, who endorsed Moore, is the only Republican senator who has not yet withdrawn his endorsement

Roy Blunt of Missouri: “The women have a more credible story than Judge Moore. Alabama voters should have a better choice and Judge Moore should have better answers to these charges.”
John McCain of Arizona: “The allegations against Roy Moore are deeply disturbing and disqualifying. He should immediately step aside and allow the people of Alabama to elect a candidate they can be proud of.”
Susan Collins of Maine: “I have now read Mr. Moore’s statement and listened to his radio interview in which he denies the charges. I did not find his denials to be convincing and believe that he should withdraw from the Senate race in Alabama.”
Lindsey Graham of South Carolina: “In light of the most recent allegations and the cumulative effect of others, I believe #RoyMoore would be doing himself, the state, the GOP, and the country a service by stepping aside.”
Chuck Grassley of Iowa: “He should step aside. The trouble is, if he agreed to step aside, his name is still on the ballot. People can still vote for him and he could get elected.”
Bob Corker of Tennessee: “Look, I’m sorry, but even before these reports surfaced, Roy Moore’s nomination was a bridge too far.”
Thom Tillis of North Carolina: “The allegations leveled at Roy Moore are disturbing. I have serious concerns about his prior conduct and fitness for office. He should immediately withdraw from the race.”
Rob Portman of Ohio: “I think if what we read is true, and people are on the record so I assume it is, then he should step aside.”

Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania: “From my point of view, you know, I have to say, I think the accusations have more credibility than the denial. I think it would be best if Roy would just step aside.”
Cory Gardner of Colorado: “If he refuses to withdraw and wins, the Senate should vote to expel him, because he does not meet the ethical and moral requirements of the United States Senate.”
Todd Young of Indiana: “The appearance of grossly reprehensible behavior disqualifies him from service in the United States Senate. If he does not step aside, we need to act to protect the integrity of the Senate.”

To argue that someone else did some bad things, only means if they did something bad, they should be charged.

Steve Fouga

I hope senators and the president don't become too involved with the race itself. I'd like to see how well he does in the election, and how the Senate reacts if he's elected.

As of yesterday, polling had him neck-and-neck with the Dem. I haven't seen any numbers today.

Carlos Ponce

"Can not find any Senator that is backing Moore." Jim, Senators don't vote for other senators. The people of Alabama will decide.

Jim Forsythe

Carlos, you are forgetting that they do vote. If he makes it to DC, he may not last long. How many Senators can afford to not expel him?
The Senate may expel a senator by a two-thirds vote.

If Moore wins the election and the Senate successfully pursues and expulsion vote, Moore would become the 16th person to have been forcibly removed from the Senate.
It’s an authority granted to the Senate in the constitution: "Each House [of Congress] may determine the Rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member."
Meaning, following a review and recommendation from the Senate Ethics Committee, 67 senators would have to vote Moore out. Since Democrats would likely all support expelling Moore, 19 Republicans would have to join the effort for it to happen.

Carlos Ponce

Jim posts: "Carlos, you are forgetting that they do vote. If he makes it to DC, he may not last long."
And what happens then? It goes back to ALABAMA. Either the governor appoints or calls another election. Alabama will have the final say.

Jim Forsythe

The Senate will decides if they want to expel them. Just because they are elected or appointed, does not mean that the Senate would be OK with them. They may hold Sessions accountable for his I do not remember testimony yesterday if he was the one.

Steve Fouga

As I understand it, even if Moore is elected and expelled, and Alabama is forced to call another special election, under state law Moore would be eligible to run again!

Steve Fouga

This wouldn't surprise me at all.

Steve Fouga

Carlos, with this statement I was trying to respond to your assertion about more allegations closer to the election.

Carlos Ponce

Little Marky, you never answered my inquiry: Despite allegations of sexual misconduct including rape against Bill Clinton did you still vote for him? The elections were in 1992 and 1996. It's a simple question. Or are you suffering a "I do not recall" episode like Hillary?

Mark Aaron

Carlos, did you see this one? Your hero the evangelical pedophile has become a joke in the US Congress.

From The Hill:

_"Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said on Wednesday that allegations that Roy Moore was banned from an Alabama mall are the latest indication that the GOP candidate shouldn't serve in the Senate.

"I've got a general rule, if you can't be in a mall, you shouldn't be in the Senate," Graham told reporters.

He added that Moore was on a "no fly list for a mall, which to me is pretty stunning.""_

Carlos Ponce

No, I'll go with actual evidence instead of opinion. If you cannot differentiate FACTS from OPINION, change your avatar. It's the BIG JOKE among GCDN readers!

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [ No, I'll go with actual evidence instead of opinion.]

From ABC News:

_" An Alabama woman who has accused Republican U.S. Senate candidate Roy Moore of sexually harassing her in the late 1970s said he was banned from the mall where she worked after she complained about his repeated, unwanted advances toward her.

“I went to my manager and talked to him about it and asked him, basically, what could be done,” Becky Gray told ABC News late Wednesday night. “Later on, he…came back through my department and told me that [Moore] had been banned from the mall.” "_

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/roy-moore-accuser-banned-mall/story?id=51195632

If the people of Alabama elect child molester Roy Moore to the US Senate will you still support him Carlos?

Carlos Ponce

Little Marky, is this ban from the mall backed by any documentation or is just hearsay?

Craig Lindberg

Mark, since it appears you agree with Sen. Lindsey Graham (RINO-SC), what's your rule for people who grope a woman while she sleeps and think it's funny? OK to be in the Senate?

Mark Aaron

Craig: [ Mark, since it appears you agree with Sen. Lindsey Graham (RINO-SC), what's your rule for people who grope a woman while she sleeps and think it's funny? OK to be in the Senate?]

Depends on the facts. What's worse: a salacious prank, or child molesting? Obviously they are not in the same class. You are not so desperate that you would try to infer that they are equal, are you Craig?

Craig Lindberg

Mark: [What's worse: a salacious prank, or child molesting? Obviously they are not in the same class. You are not so desperate that you would try to infer that they are equal, are you Craig?]

Child molesting? You must be referring to Seattle Mayor Ed Murray. Yup, that's pretty bad. You’re not so desperate that you would try to infer that Franken is as bad as it gets in the democrat party, are you Mark?

From what Corey Feldman is saying, it looks like the next wave of revelations coming out of the Hollywood democratic base is going to be child molesting. Maybe there was something to the Podesta/Ping-Pong pizza thing after all??? And then there is Jeffery Epstein’s sex slave, child molesting, rapist heaven island, how long until folks remember it and how many times the rapist-in-chief Bill Clinton vacationed there? Speaking of the rapist President that now even democrat senators are saying he is a rapist, I bet you applied a much higher burden of proof to his accusers that you do to Moore. That forged signature in a yearbook really sells it for you eh? And of course, let's not forget that Hillary, the democrats, and their propaganda arm, the mainstream media, have been covering up this myriad of democrat sexual predators for decades while claiming to be the champions of women's rights. Funny how only brainwashed duped libs like you believed it.

Who is desperate Mark? That would be the guy you see when you look in the mirror.

Craig Lindberg

Mark: [salacious prank]

Looks like it's a bit more than that Mr. brainwashed lib dupe:

Franken in 1995: "“And ‘I give the pills to Lesley Stahl. Then when Lesley’s passed out, I take her to the closet and rape her.’ Or ‘That’s why you never see Lesley until February.’ Or, ‘When she passes out I put her in various positions and take pictures of her.””
http://variety.com/2008/biz/opinion/franken-hit-wit-43703/

Craig Lindberg

So Mark, why do you support democrat senators who want to drug women and rape them?

Craig Lindberg

Maybe for the same reasons you support a President who raped women?

Because to you ideology is most important. Everything else is just a tool. Women, race, religion, just things for you to exploit for your bankrupt ideology. Good grief you are pathetic.

Craig Lindberg

And your girl HRC, praises Franken for his "accountability," while condemning Moore for not doing the same despite there being no proof. As if anyone believes Franken would have admitted anything if not for the pictures. And, all the while, she not only refuses condemn her rapist husband for not taking responsibility, she refuses to take responsibility for covering up his crimes and for further victimizing the women he raped and assaulted in order to cover for him. Then, in the ultimate display of corrupt arrogance, she pretends not to understand what democrats like Kirsten Gillibrand are saying when they all but call her rapist husband a rapist. https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/17/hillary-clinton-trump-roy-moore-sexual-misconduct-247666

Mark, why do you support and vote for a liar, hypocrite, and woman victimizer like HRC?

Craig Lindberg

And if it's not enough that Franken is a sexual predator, he hired a rapist as an intern. http://kstp.com/news/al-franken-twin-cities-victim-legislation-sexual-assault-victim/4672892/

Mark, why do you hate women so much that you defend rapist democrats like Bill Clinton and predator/enablers like Franken?

Craig Lindberg

With respect to the variety.com quote - obviously it's not suggesting Franken raped anyone - but it does expose how he thinks.

Carlos Ponce

Little Marky, you never answered my inquiry: Despite allegations of sexual misconduct including rape against Bill Clinton did you still vote for him? The elections were in 1992 and 1996. It's a simple question. Or are you suffering a "I do not recall" episode like Hillary?

Carlos Ponce

Looks like I've figured a way to shut Little Marky down, at least to this post.[beam]
But it's okay Little Marky. Whoever you voted for in 1992 and 1996 is your business. And if you voted for an alleged rapist, womanizer, abuser of women - that's your vote, your right to do so. It does make you look like a hypocrite in chastising those who would vote for Roy Moore if you did vote that way. There's and old Earth saying: "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".
Of course if you voted for George HW Bush in 1992, Bob Dole in 1996 or chose not to vote that's your little secret.

Mark Aaron

Carlos, I see your pedophile/evangelical hero has been a busy boy.

From CNBC:

_"Four previously unknown women came forward on Wednesday to allege that they were the targets of disturbing sexual advances by Alabama Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore. The new accounts bring the total to nine women who have alleged inappropriate sexual behavior by Moore, which he denies."_

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/11/15/roy-moore-campaign-lawyer-statement.html

Carlos Ponce

Look for more as the election nears. Any proof of their allegations?
But Emile, I see your womanizing, alleged RAPIST ex-President is under renewed scrutiny over TWENTY years late. Does it matter since he is no longer president???? Yes, yes it does.

Jim Forsythe

Here, from an October 2017 news item:
"Lawyers for one of the women who have accused Donald Trump of sexual assault subpoenaed his campaign for all documents relating to her, all communications with or about her and "all documents concerning any woman who asserted that Donald J. Trump touched her inappropriately."
This comes in the case of Summer Zervos, a former contestant on "The Apprentice" who accused Trump of sexually assaulting her in 2007. The accusations were made in October of last year at a news conference.
Zervos claims Trump kissed her twice on the lips during a lunch meeting in his New York City office and on a separate occasion in Beverly Hills, she alleges he kissed her aggressively and touched her breast.
In a statement at the time, Trump denied these claims."

Carlos Ponce

Jim posted "subpoenaed his campaign for all documents relating to her, all communications with or about her and "all documents concerning any woman who asserted that Donald J. Trump touched her inappropriately."
That doesn't even sound legal nor plausible.
"Late Friday night, the Trump campaign released another statement, this time from someone said to be Zervos’ cousin, John Barry, who said he was 'completely shocked and bewildered by my cousin, Summer Zervos, and her press conference today.' He said she had had 'nothing but glowing things to say about Mr. Trump' and added that for nearly a decade she would “talk about how much she looked up to Mr. Trump and viewed him as an inspiration.” He also said that 'Summer would also talk about how kind and caring Mr. Trump was on the show, and how he would even visit children in hospitals without telling the press.'
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/former-apprentice-summer-zervos-accuses-donald-trump-of-sexual-misconduct/
And who stood by Summer as she made her accusation? GLORIA ALLRED. Who said John Barry was a HUGE Trump supporter.
"The Trump campaign released an email from former The Apprentice contestant Summer Zervos, showing that she hoped to 'reconnect' with the presidential candidate in April 2016, years after her alleged sexual assault."
"Hello[sent to TRUMP SENIOR EMPLOYEE, RHONA GRAFF IN 2016],

I'm certain you are a very busy woman. I am in a unique situation being that I am the only former Apprentice who operates a business where Mr Trump's supporters can walk in, express their admiration for him and inquire about my experience. Mr Trump has a great deal of support in Huntington Beach, Ca! He has witnessed both my highs and lows operating a small business and I am pleased to report that business is good. Sunny's Restaurant has a long history of making people feel special. We hire a diverse crew and embrace anyone who is honest while working hard. Mr Trump is cut from the same cloth.

I would greatly appreciate reconnecting at this time. He will know my intentions are genuine.

Thank you,

Summer Zervos " SENT APRIL 2016
SPECULATION: Maybe because Trump didn't "reconnect" this is her retaliation.

Jim Forsythe

The subpoena, issued in March, is just coming to light now and is part of a defamation lawsuit filed by Zervos in January in the New York State Supreme Court against Trump following his denials..
The subpoena was served to the campaign, but Zervos' lawyers and the campaign agreed to suspend the response date until after a motion to dismiss the lawsuit is decided, Mariann Wang, one of her attorneys, told CNN. She said campaign officials gave assurances that the documents be preserved which they did.

A woman who said Donald Trump groped her has subpoenaed his campaign for documents about “any woman alleging that Donald J. Trump touched her inappropriately.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcNHhDnyFJo

Carlos Ponce

Summer's credibility is lacking in light of her cousin'e revelation and her e-mail to the Trump campaign made in 2016 years AFTER the alleged misconduct.

Jim Forsythe

You are talking about John Barry who may have had a ax to grind, because his employment ended at Summer’s family restaurant.

The statement continued that “John Barry is a huge Trump supporter. He was employed at Summer’s family restaurant until several months ago when his employment ended. Since then he has expressed hostility and ill will towards Summer. Given the rifts in the family relationships which existed even prior to Summer making her statement today, and given his support for Mr. Trump, 

Jim Forsythe

What is your standard on how many years, before it could not have happen. When does it  become too many years?
What makes John Barry so credible? When was he with Trump ? Does he hang out with trump , or is he just a HUGE Trump supporter.
"cousin's revelation " That he was not with his cousin when she said  it happen, but he is sure it did not happen! Why is he sure?
Why do you believe him over Zervos? 

Ann Russo, a social worker and friend of Zervos, said she recalls Zervos talking about her encounters with Trump more than five years ago — long before the candidate decided to run for office 
"It is very common for people who have experienced assault to blame themselves and excuse away what the predator has done,”“
But sexual assault is not about sex, as much as it is about power and control.”

Carlos Ponce

Jim, Jim, Jim, why ignore the EMAIL Summer sent the Trump campaign????? John Barry's memory of her attitude towards Trump and Summer's EMAIL concur. Why would she have a desire to "reconnect" with Donald Trump if the events she now purports happened? And her connection with GLORIA ALLRED seems fishy.

Craig Lindberg

And yet the only evidence of any of it is a signature in a yearbook that appears to be a forgery and Gloria Allred who has been waiving it around like it's the be-all-end-all against Moore is now saying she never asked her client if she saw Moore sign it. Somehow I'm guessing you held Bill Clinton to a different standard when it came to multiple women coming forward to accuse him...

Craig Lindberg

If you're Mark, you also have to rationalize how you voted for Hillary (to be President of all things!) who attacked and destroyed the character of the women Bill Clinton raped and sexually assaulted. It's not bad enough that Bill attacked them that she attacked them too? Just a day in the life of a brainwashed liberal.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [ Despite allegations of sexual misconduct including rape against Bill Clinton did you still vote for him?]

It was obvious from well before the election that there was a big hit job out on Bill Clinton. The first of its kind in my lifetime.The claims against him were the typical kind of logical fallacies you traffic in Carlos. They were easy to see through. The quantity and low quality of the claims had most rational people discounting all of them. It was a well coordinated hatchet job. We knew he was a bit of a womanizer, but so was JFK, and we loved him. It just wasn't a big deal.

The closest we came to hearing anything that mattered was Clinton showing his privates in a miscommunication with Paula Jones. Which is all it ever was. Nothing credible was on the wire before either election suggesting any kind of serious abuse. So voting for him in both elections was guilt free, and still is.

Do you still support your party's child molester candidate for the US Senate Carlos?

Craig Lindberg

Mark: [It was obvious from well before the election that there was a big hit job out on Bill Clinton... Markish BS continues...]

Yet it wasn't a hit job. He is a rapist. Prominent democrats like Sen. Gillibrand are even coming to grips with it. His vacations to Jeffery Epstein’s sex slave, child molesting, rapist heaven island, are not forgotten.

You can try to convince yourself that you're guilt free all you you want, but you are guilty as sin - as guilty as HRC, the mainstream media, and the rest of the democrats who covered it up.

Mark Aaron

Craig: [ You can try to convince yourself that you're guilt free all you you want, but you are guilty as sin - as guilty as HRC, the mainstream media, and the rest of the democrats who covered it up.]

Poor Craig, duped again. Research when Kathleen Wiley made her accusation public.

Craig Lindberg

Oh my, now people on both the HRC and Sanders campaigns are alleging sexual harassment and the Florida Dem chair resigns for his "creepy behavior." Mark, why do you support sexual harassment and assault? Why do you hate women???

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-sanders-campaign-sexual-harassment_us_5a0dfdf2e4b045cf43705417
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/political-pulse/os-fdp-chair-bittel-resign-20171117-story.html

Carlos Ponce

" big hit job out on Bill Clinton"
Sounds like you supported an alleged rapist and clearly defined womanizer i those elections. Hit job, COME ON! Little Marky is a hypocrite. I bet believed Bill when he said, " I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky." I waited foe evidence - and it was revealed. Little Marky is jumping to conclusions despite a LACK of evidence.
"Do you still support your party's child molester candidate for the US Senate Carlos?" I am not an Alabama voter so I support neither candidate. I just seek the FACTS. If the facts reveal his actions were inappropriate then he should step aside. So far the only "evidence" is a yearbook page which his lawyers seek to authenticate or disprove. Wait until there is evidence. This version of an "October surprise" delayed because of the election date is typical of Liberal smear tactics.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [I am not an Alabama voter so I support neither candidate. I just seek the FACTS. If the facts reveal his actions were inappropriate then he should step aside. So far the only "evidence" is a yearbook page which his lawyers seek to authenticate or disprove. Wait until there is evidence. This version of an "October surprise" delayed because of the election date is typical of Liberal smear tactics.]

You are in deep denial Carlos. Unlike Clinton, who you have tried and convicted on the word of one woman, Roy Moore sexually molested a 14 year old little girl. Nine women have come forth to accuse Roy Moore of improper advances towards teenagers. Roy Moore was banned from the mall and the YMCA for hitting on teenagers. But you need to wait on more facts to make a determination. Does that much hypocrisy burn Carlos?

Carlos Ponce

Little Marky, Hillary says that the cases against Bill have bee adjudicated". He's been taken to court and paid the price. On a related matter, lying under oath he was impeached.

Carlos Ponce

Little Mary posts: "Roy Moore was banned from the mall...."
How do you check on something like that?
ASK THE MALL MANAGER OF THAT TIME!!!!!!
Former Mall Manager Barnes Boyle, 86, told local [Birmingham] Alabama news station WBRC on Thursday that they kept track of reports and that Moore was never banned from the mall.
http://www.wbrc.com/Clip/13905910/former-gadsden-mall-manager-says-roy-moore-wasnt-banned
Maybe she got it wrong and she got Moore banned from the store only, not the mall. Then again, maybe she just made it up. Full disclosure: Barnes Boyle supports Moore.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [ Maybe she got it wrong and she got Moore banned from the store only, not the mall. Then again, maybe she just made it up. Full disclosure: Barnes Boyle supports Moore.]

Thank you for the disclosure Carlos. Yeah, his comments are difficult to ascertain given his age and his support for a known child molester. He could be right, but is the YMCA claim also questionable, or do the two incidents show a pattern? Given the word of so many women who came forth in a short period of time they are the most damning evidence. Don't forget that just because one fact may turn out to be incorrect that doesn't mean all facts are incorrect.

So what should your party do if Moore is elected Carlos? What message will a Moore victory send about the morality of Republican voters?

Carlos Ponce

If Moore is elected and there is no real evidence against him, no problem. Let him serve.
If Moore is elected and there is ample evidence, Edgar Allan Poe said it best, " Quoth the Raven "Nevermoore." There are actions that can be taken.
Wait until there there is evidence either way. Seek the TRUTH. With so little time between the accusations and the election something smells rotten in Alabama.

Carlos Ponce

Cryptic Gloria Allred

CNN Wolf Blitzer: Can you say flatly to our viewers right now, Gloria that the signature, what he wrote in that yearbook in 1977 according to her, can you say flatly that was not a forgery?
Gloria Allred: Well, all I am saying is we will permit an independent examiner of the writing to look at exemplars of former judge twice removed from the Alabama Supreme Court, judge on account of ethical violations, according to the ethics committee in that state, we will allow of this to be asked and answered at the hearing.
Wolf Blitzer: But that’s not a flat denial, Gloria.
Gloria Allred: Well it’s it’s, all I am saying is we are not denying, we are not admitting, we are not addressing. We will not be distracted, and we will pursue a just result for our client.
Wolf Blitzer: But why do you need a Senate hearing on this? Why not just permit an independent handwriting examiner to go back and look at the yearbook and see if it’s genuine that signature or a forgery?
Gloria Allred: Well, all I can say is that we want it done in a professional setting to the extent possible. That’s the only setting in which people can testify under oath. That’s what we think is most important. And I think very reasonable on our part to want to have this addressed and to say we will submit it at that time should such a hearing be held.

An MSNBC anchorwoman pressed Allred on whether her client, Nelson, had actually seen Moore sign the yearbook.
Gloria Allred: She remembers his…well, she remembers being with him. It was on the counter; she alleges that he took it, that he signed it, and she was thrilled that he had signed it because as far as she knew he was a DA, and that was an important position. I don’t think at the time she had a clue whether he was an assistant DA or a DA. But he signed it. She took it. As far as she knows, I mean there’s no reason for her to think it’s anything but his signature
MSNBC: But did she see him sign it?
Gloria Allred: You know, I don’t -I-I haven’t asked her if she saw him, but we did describe what happened that evening in question. That what she alleges was, that she put it on the counter, that I think that he asked to si- or that he did sign it. That’s all
MSNBC: I ask this because it seems like you’re not 100 percent sure that it is his signature, and if you’re not 100 percent sure that it is his signature, why would you show it at a press conference?
Gloria Allred: Well, why would, why does anyone doubt that it’s not his signature?
MSNBC: If independent analysis shows that that is not his signature, does that disprove your client’s allegations?
Gloria Allred: No, it doesn’t. And that’s a hypothetical that I have no reason to believe would happen that it’s not his signature.

Has the 1977 Southside High School of Gadsen Yearbook been turned over to a Third Party? No.
Curiouser and curiouser.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [ With so little time between the accusations and the election something smells rotten in Alabama.]

Doing some more preemptive striking Carlos? Sounds like you are saying that if the accused pedophile Roy Moore still gets elected and Congress has to try him for child molesting it is the Democrats fault?

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [Cryptic Gloria Allred]

So Carlos, you are now reduced to pretending the victims of child molestation are lying by using baseless innuendo.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: [ ...he was impeached.]

Impeached means indicted. He was later found not guilty by the Senate. The GOP overreached and got slaughtered in the next election.

Carlos Ponce

Little Marky, I didn't make up the statements Gloria Allred gave CNN and MSNBC. Is is THEY who question the authenticity of the words on a 40 year old yearbook page.
I thought CNN and MSNBC were on the approved Liberal viewing list.[unsure]

Craig Lindberg

"Or are you suffering a "I do not recall" episode like Hillary?"

No, Mark is suffering "I don't care." Sex, race, religion, gender, etc. are all just tools to people like Mark who only care about ideology.

Jim Forsythe

That was the first E mail.
What Summer said about emailing Trump was different than the email the Trump campaign released

Carlos Ponce

What she emailed and what she said about it after making allegations are different? Obviously they would be. It's called "back tracking".

Carlos Ponce

Jim posts: "What Summer said about emailing Trump was different than the email the Trump campaign released." And we know this because you say so? If you provide a link will it have the "actual" text of the email or something contrived? Call me cynical but there's an old Earth saying: "Fool me once SHAME on you. Fool me twice SHAME ON ME." And Liberals have tried to fool the American people thousands of times. I want actual proof.

Jim Forsythe

What makes John Barry so credible? When was he with Trump ? Does he hang out with trump , or is he just a HUGE Trump supporter.
"cousin's revelation " That he was not with his cousin when she said  it happen, but he is sure it did not happen! Why is he sure?
Why do you believe him over Zervos? 

Carlos Ponce

I've already explained that Jim. Her email BACKS what her cousin said. And when discovered of course she would back track her remarks trying to save face. DUH!

Jim Forsythe

cousin's revelation " That he was not with his cousin when she said  it happen, but he is sure it did not happen! Why is he sure?

Jim Forsythe

Trump moved quickly Thursday to condemn accusations against Minnesota Democratic Sen. Al Franken as "really bad," but he has remained conspicuously silent on the more serious claims leveled against Roy Moore, the Republican in Alabama's special Senate race who faces allegations he sexually assaulted teenage girls decades ago.

Carlos Ponce

No, Jim. Trump said that if the allegations are true he needs to step away. Liberals must have a short term memory. Refresh your lapsing memory:
"White House: If allegations against Moore are true, he should step aside"
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/10/politics/white-house-roy-moore-donald-trump/index.html
"Trump believes Roy Moore will 'step aside' if allegations true, White House says"
http://abcnews.go.com/International/white-house-trump-believes-roy-moore-step-allegations/story?id=51056217
Do you NOW remember, Jim?

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