(54) comments Back to story

Jose' Boix

A great discussion and argument regarding our history; much of what Mr. Cross' details about Columbus are not known by many. His guest editorial wraps up elegantly by stating: "When we no longer have the capacity to celebrate men like Columbus, imperfect as he may have been, we lose some of what made America great," and;
"Where will it end and when all these monuments that some declare offensive are gone, what monuments and symbols will replace them? Will these new monuments bring unity or will they speed up America becoming a more divided multi-cultured society?" Much food for thought!

Doyle Beard

Jack Cross and Jose' hit the ball out of the park. Now a days too many people are loong for pefection and not reality. They dont seem to care about the truth of our past. Pefection will never be attaine on our planet although we can and should work to make it better. But to me trying to forget our history just ludicrous.

PD Hyatt

Because real history is not being taught anymore people do not know what happened in the past.... The Bible tells us that my people perish from the lack of knowledge. People who do not know what happened in the past are doomed to repeat it in the future.... Our nation has done some bad and stupid things in the past, but there is no nation in the history of this world that has grown so powerful and rich and that has done so much for the rest of the world.... Why can't our people see that we are not back in the 1800's and never will be again....

Carlos Ponce

Paul, it's in the TEKS (Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills) beginning with Kindergarten but like everything else it depends on the individual teachers' knowledge, what they consider relevant and what they emphasize.
113.11. Social Studies, Kindergarten
b. Knowledge and Skills 2. History(A) identify contributions of historical figures, including Stephen F. Austin, George Washington, Christopher Columbus, and José Antonio Navarro, who helped to shape the state and nation; and
Grade 3:
(C) describe how individuals, including Daniel Boone, Christopher Columbus, the Founding Fathers, and Juan de Oñate, have contributed to the expansion of existing communities or to the creation of new communities.
Grade 5
17 Citizenship
(D) describe the origins and significance of national celebrations such as Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Constitution Day, Columbus Day, and Veterans Day
http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/rules/tac/chapter113/ch113a.html

Willis Briggs

If you will read Jack's article at least twice, you should understand his perspective. Because of his age and experience (he has been there and done that), Jack, as many others including myself , were educated in a different time that believed in the thought that knowledge of the past could bring a better future.
When we think the past serves no value, then our future will have less value.

Emile Pope

Exactly who is proposing that statues be defaced or destroyed? Columbus did some horrible things and it's wrong not to acknowledge this. Contrary to what the writer says, this was not a "virgin continent" when Columbus stumbled upon it. There were people living here when they arrived and his treatment of those inhabitants is the reason he is reviled by many today. Trying to whitewash his history simply because the truth might make some uncomfortable is truly erasing history.

Carlos Ponce

Emile posts: 'Columbus did some horrible things..." Nobody is trying to whitewash history. We can take the bad with the good.
St. Paul persecuted the Christians. King David spied on a girl who was bathing, got her pregnant, set up her husband to be killed. Washington, Jefferson, Houston all owned slaves. Bernado de Galvez imported slaves into Spanish Louisiana. Grant operated a farm with slaves as did Lee. FDR ordered the internment of Japanese Americans. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a womanizer as were John Kennedy,Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton. Add Bill Cosby to the list, a man I greatly admired. Foreign workers were killed by Cesar Chavez' men.
None of this is hidden, kept hush, hush, whitewashed. Not one human is perfect.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "Add Bill Cosby to the list, a man I greatly admired."

Do you still admire him knowing what you know today? If your child or grandchild's school had a mural with his picture on it would you want that mural changed?

==> "None of this is hidden, kept hush, hush, whitewashed. Not one human is perfect."

Actually it was kept hidden. Most of the things you mention weren't taught in public school, or at least not until the final years of high school, if ever. Most people were never taught what a cruel martinet Columbus was and how he enslaved and killed native Americans and forced his religion on them.

Jack Cross

The anti-Columbus rhetoric is a bunch of nonsense. If one googles Columbus Crimes against humanity, you will not find a single crime that Columbus or his crew committed. I don’t say this did not happen but there was no one there in 1492 to witness it or in his writings. What you will find is a lot of anti-capitalism after the fact fake news. These claims include that one of Columbus's motivations was greed for gold. If that in fact was one of his missions, what’s wrong with that, we still do that today. Another claim that is strictly an opinion was that another of Columbus's motives for making the journey was his capitalistic greed through the potential of wealth through the slave trade,
Think about that, if Columbus thought he was finding a shorter route to Asia, how in the world can you blame him for any slave trade. It is a fact that decades and centuries later after Europeans started arriving in the new world the slave trade began, but give me a break, blaming the great explorer is just another anti-capitalist attack. While we are exploring history, lets include that it was Blacks in Africa who rounded up their people and sold them to European traders who carried them to the west. Enslaving anyone is wrong but there is no one alive today that owned slaves or agrees with it. Most all peoples have been enslaved at some time in history. The Muslims for 10 centuries captures and enslaves Christians all around the coast of the Mediterranean and as far as England and Iceland. The Muslims of the barbary coasts captured U.S. Ships and enslaved the American Crews when the U.S. was a new nation. This led to the barbary wars when Jefferson sent in the Marines and the USS Constitution and the U.S. fleet. The Romans enslaved the British when they concerted what is now the U.K. The people then were more like tribal groups. After the Romans left, the people had been educated to know stone work, how to build building and build roads, sewer and water transfer. One could say that the British benefited from slavery, as bad as it was. These people who tear down statues today, know nothing about history, they are just pawns being used by those who have a socialist anti-cabalistic open boarders one world agenda.

Doyle Beard

more HOGWASH

Emile Pope

Trying to justify what was done in America by bringing up events that occurred centuries ago thousands of miles away is ridiculous.

Mark Aaron

Jack Cross: [ you will not find a single crime that Columbus or his crew committed.]

You'll find a hellofa a lot more than a single crime against humaity. You'll find a holocaust level of crimes committed by Columbus and his crews.

http://rapidcityjournal.com/lifestyles/people/top-atrocities-committed-by-christopher-columbus/collection_76ebb2b8-f63d-11e3-a137-001a4bcf887a.html#1

Carol Dean

Emile, are you suggesting that none of your ancestors "threw any stones"? I hope not.

Doyle Beard

so if things happened long ago then it doesnt matter to Emile.selective memory I guess

Emile Pope

Exactly what I am saying.

Doyle Beard

So dont worry about Christopher Columbus then. this original story post was about Columbus and Columbus Day

Carol Dean

Wait, Emile, none of your ancestors have ever said or done anything intentionally offensive towards others!?! I guess I must have missed that story in The Bible!

Jose' Boix

As I continue to read these posts and other articles, they somehow serve to refresh one of the closing points of Mr. Cross' guest column: Is all this debate serving to bring unity or are they speeding up America becoming a more divided multi-cultured society? Unfortunately to date, in my opinion, we are moving apart.

Mark Aaron

Jose': [or are they speeding up America becoming a more divided multi-cultured society?]

Are you saying you have a problem with a multi-cultured society? What do you mean by that?

Ken Hufstetler

Jack & Jose - I agree completely with you and appreciate you comments. We need more who take the time to learn the truth and share it.

Carol Dean

Anyone with even a small amount of intelligence knows that knowing one's history is insiteful in preventing patterns to replay themselves; thus nullifying Emile's comment.

Carol Dean

Mr. Beard, the same applies to you. Come out from behind that computer unless you are using it to do factual research.

Jack Cross

Carol, when Mr. Beard posted "More Hogwash" I think he was referring to some of the comments, not me. I know Doyle, he is a no nonsense, patriotic American citizen who cuts through the P.C.

Carol Dean

I trust that you are right, Mr. Cross!

Doyle Beard

Amen Jack . No PC for me .

Doyle Beard

I believe if you will go back and read I ws refering to Marks garbage not Jack Cross

Carol Dean

Oh, Jack cleared that issue up for me; my apologies.

Doyle Beard

I posted early that Jack and Jose' hit the ball out of the park.

Emile Pope

Foul balls go out of the park also...

Jack Cross

Emily, I don't usually get into a back and forth on this forum because things get off subject, but when you posted, "Trying to justify what was done in America by bringing up events that occurred centuries ago thousands of miles away is ridiculous" I am trying to understand this, what exactly did Columbus do to America? He landed on a small island, it seems that the opposition to Columbus centers around modern day claims of his spreading religion, he was greedy because of claims he was seeking gold which makes him a capatilist, he is responsible for slavery since sugar cane was discovered and slaves was needed to harvest it. All of this seems pretty shallow to me and maybe that is some of the hogwash Mr. Beard was writing about. The real danger is that young people who tear down Columbus Statues are buying into this nonsense never realizing that they are being used to push an anti capitalist, anti religious socialist agenda and sell the Idea that the founders were bad people and all these things that we have appreciated for 240 years must be destroyed. Even more alarming is that Hillary started a White Supremacy agenda, obviously to pick up African American votes but this thing is picking up steam and there will be no winners going down this route.
Why do we always need a victim. The key to success is education, family, character, responsibility and a belief in God doesn't hurt.

Emile Pope

Perhaps you should learn to spell as a start...
Why do people like yourself ask for proof when you have already decided to ignore anything presented? The fact that you decide to only listen to right wing blogs that offer no evidence to support their position other than their opinion doesn't make them right. It only makes them consistent. Please feel free to cling to any conspiracy theories that make you feel comfortable with the fact that things haven't turned out the way you planned. I'll chose to live in reality...

Carol Dean

Emile, just because "your reality" makes sense to you, doesn't mean that it is accurate and factual.

Emile Pope

My realty is based on the truth, not who says it. And definitely not on a vote...

Jack Cross

Emily, that is insulting.

Emile Pope

Like you calling me a female?

Doyle Beard

REally

Emile Pope

Implying that people don't succeed because they lack education, family, character, or responsibility is totally wrong and insulting.

Carlos Ponce

"people don't succeed because they lack education, family, character, or responsibility" Sounds right but I would add "moral" in front of character.
Education is important whether you're talking about formal schooling or skills obtained through apprenticeship or training.
Family is important. A good family structure won't ensure success bt is a good asset in learning teamwork. The family is a team.
A person may make money without moral character but is that really success? On the other hand a person with a bad character ......
Ben Parker said with great power comes great responsibility. How can one be successful without demonstrating responsibility/ It won't happen.

Emile Pope

Apparently you have never heard of Donald Trump....

Jack Cross

Come on- Mr. Pope, If you don't have education, come from a broken family, lack character and don't accept responsibility, your odds of succeeding are slim. That is what I said and if anyone disagree with that, I will let other comment writers make their judgement. I did not say that one could not overcome these odds. These forums should be about a seasonable discussion, not about playing a gotcha game.
That keeps people off the comment line.

Emile Pope

Unless your name is Trump...

Carlos Ponce

Trump has the education, doesn't come from a broken family, has character, and accepts responsibility. Saying he does not shows ignorance and/or dependence on fake news. Didn't your mother teach you not to listen to gossip? That's the mainstay of Liberal News - CNN, NBC, MSNBC, NYT, WAPO, etc. . And they do it to gain viewers, sell papers to those who prefer gossip to real news. It's usually preceded by "Undisclosed sources reveal that Trump.....". - That's GOSSIP! There's too much of that in the fake news sources.
When you hear that phrase "undisclosed sources...." IGNORE what follows. It is GOSSIP!

Emile Pope

Trump's father was a criminal. His mother came here illegally. He has a solid reputation of not paying his contractors, running a sham university, and harassing women. He has been married three times and cheated on all of them. Not even mentioning his many bankruptcies, how about his attacking a gold star family, making racist statements, and mocking a handicapped person. And yet this person of low character somehow became president...

Carlos Ponce

Emile posts: "Trump's father was a criminal. "
Was he ever jailed? No. Fined? No. A lawsuit was filed against his company which alleged discrimination. Result was take out an ad saying they were an equal opportunity leaser. Records show other properties he owned had a high rate of minority, specifically African-American, clientele.
"His mother came here illegally." No evidence of that. Even Snopes says the claim is unproven.
"He has a solid reputation of not paying his contractors, running a sham university, and harassing women." Contractors work under CONTRACT. If the terms of the contract require that specifics be met - no problem. Under the terms of the contract if they have not been met they go to court for litigation. Litigation in court said some payment was required since terms had not been met but not all.
Sham university - Under terms in the contract conditions had not been met by those who ran it so repayment was requirement. Sham? Not his intent.
harassing women - notice these women only came out when he was nominated then disappeared after eye witnesses dismissed their claims. Did any woman ever accuse him of grabbing their p---y? No. Just "locker room talk". It reminds me of many I grew up - talk the talk but not walk the walk.
" He has been married three times and cheated on all of them." Is being remarried a crime? You'd have problems with the Hollywood types if you say is. Not my lifestyle but I am not their judge. Trump and Ivanas' marriage was on the rocks when Marla came up. Marla Maples was never comfortable with the marriage so break up was inevitable.
Bankruptcies, yes. Most people in his financial circle have a few but he always comes out winning.
Attacking a Gold Star Mother - All he did was question why she did not speak. That’s not bashing. Mocking a handicapped person. Videos show he mocks every
body whose views are befuddled and confused, no handicap needed. Racist remarks - not really but when you’ve got nothing, play the race card.
Is he of low character? You may claim whatever you want but the evidence is not there. Just typical lies, obfuscations, GOSSIP.
Emile you will never vote for Trump but Texas' Electoral votes will go to him. He doesn't need your vote in Texas.

Carlos Ponce

Time for "GUESS THE WOMANIZER"
This president had numerous affairs before and during his presidency including those with Hollywood Stars including Marilyn Monroe.
This president is alleged to have an affair with one of his slaves and fathered her children.
This president had numerous affairs with numerous women. He was alleged to have sexually assaulted several, even raping one. But according to his wife who called them Bimbos" each was litigated. Documented was his affair with a very young intern who inserted cigars into her v---------. The president then gave the cigars to foreign dignitaries.
This president had a 21 year affair before and during his presidency. He fathered a son out of wedlock.
This president had an affair with a woman named ----. His wife asked for a divorce but he refused thinking his political career would be jeopardized. The mistress was at his bedside when he died in office.

Mark Aaron

Jack Cross: [Their success led to racial tensions with the largest mass hanging in the history of the United States when 11 Italians were lynched.]

Wrong. From Wikipedia:

_By late December 1862, soldiers had taken captive more than a thousand Dakota, who were interned in jails in Minnesota. After trials and sentencing, 38 Dakota were hanged on December 26, 1862, in the largest one-day execution in American history. In April 1863, the rest of the Dakota were expelled from Minnesota to Nebraska and South Dakota. _

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+largest+mass+hanging+in+the+history+of+the+United+States&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Emile Pope

Wonder why they didn't count? Guess that the thousands of lynchings during Jim Crow didn't matter also....

Mark Aaron

Emile: [Guess that the thousands of lynchings during Jim Crow didn't matter also....]

That was what I was thinking too.

Emile Pope

Apparently they lacked education, character, and family....

Carol Dean

I hope you and Emile don't strain your brains "thinking". Emile always seems to be in "angry" mode. You just can't make progress if your attitude is always negative. While we are at it..there are always two sides to every story and then there is the truth.

Mark Aaron

Carol: [I hope you and Emile don't strain your brains "thinking". Emile always seems to be in "angry" mode. You just can't make progress if your attitude is always negative.]

Emile always seems quite calm and well informed to me.

Carol Dean

Carlos, I like your "thought process"!

Mark Aaron

Carol: [Carlos, I like your "thought process"!]

I was glad to see you knew to put Carlos' "thought process" in quotation marks.[rolleyes]

Jose' Boix

Let's circle back and ask the basic question again. Is all this debate serving to bring unity or are they speeding up America becoming a more divided? Just based on this Forum debate; has it served to unite or divide?

Welcome to the discussion.

Keep it Clean. Please avoid obscene, vulgar, lewd, racist or sexually-oriented language.
PLEASE TURN OFF YOUR CAPS LOCK.
Don't Threaten. Threats of harming another person will not be tolerated.
Be Truthful. Don't knowingly lie about anyone or anything.
Be Nice. No racism, sexism or any sort of -ism that is degrading to another person.
Be Proactive. Use the 'Report' link on each comment to let us know of abusive posts.
Share with Us. We'd love to hear eyewitness accounts, the history behind an article.