In August 2016, NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick knelt during a pregame performance of the national anthem to protest the treatment of African-Americans in the criminal justice system. Kaepernick has since been vilified by many as ungrateful and unpatriotic.

President Trump injected himself into this matter by calling any player refusing to stand for the national anthem a “son of a bitch” deserving immediate termination. Hundreds of NFL players, coaches, and team owners responded by taking a knee or locking arms, and they’ve also been called ungrateful and unpatriotic.

As for Kaepernick and other black athletes being ungrateful, that’s just another way of calling them “uppity” for daring to speak up. It’s as if professional African-American sports figures must remain silent and be eternally grateful that they’re not back on some plantation or “shot in the head” like one of Trump’s evangelical advisers stated.

Historically there never has seemed to be a good time or manner for minorities to stage any sort of public protests. Lunch counter sit-ins were initially frowned upon. Street demonstrations demanding an end to desegregation were frowned upon. Rosa Parks refusal to give up her bus seat was upsetting to users of public transportation. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. expressed deep disappointment with folks, especially from so-called supporters, who advised him to wait for a more “convenient” time, place, and manner to stage his protests.

According to those who know him, Kaepernick is a devout Christian who first consulted with his pastor, and they both agreed that faith requires action in the face of injustice. Kaepernick also met with veterans, including Nate Boyer, a former Army Green Beret, and received their blessings before he staged his protest. Kaepernick stood and cheered when U.S. Marines parachuted into the stadium during a pregame salute to the military.

He was also observed standing and applauding while “God Bless America” was performed between the third and fourth quarters. Then Kaepernick donated $1 million dollars to community organizations and offered to meet with police academy cadets and minority leaders to try to improve police-community relations and make America a better place for everyone.

Kaepernick is a good American, and President Trump should be the last person to question the patriotism of any American. At the height of the Vietnam War, he dodged military service by obtaining four student deferments and one medical deferment for some pesky “bone spurs.”

Years later, Trump told radio host Howard Stern that while others were fighting and dying in Vietnam, he was in the USA trying to avoid sexually transmitted diseases, and that was his personal “Vietnam.” Funny how President Trump has never questioned the patriotism or gratefulness of the white supremacists in Charlottesville bearing Confederate flags.

Thank you Mr. Kaepernick for standing up when you took a knee against injustice. MLK was right. The appropriate time and place to address an injustice is here and now, not tomorrow and somewhere else. Too bad our president has yet to learn that lesson.

Roberto Torres is an attorney at law in Galveston and writes columns from a progressive perspective.

(107) comments

Carlos Ponce

Not only does President Trump question Kaepernick's patriotism, millions of Americans do. Protesting social injustice is good but NOT during the playing of the National Anthem. That just shows contempt for the Anthem, the flag and this country. If this is the wrong impression then stop it or find another country where they will pay you millions to play a game.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "Not only does President Trump question Kaepernick's patriotism, millions of Americans do. Protesting social injustice is good but NOT during the playing of the National Anthem. That just shows contempt for the Anthem, the flag and this country."

Just because millions of racists question Mr. Kaepernick's patriotism that doesn't mean he is unpatriotic, it just means the racists refuse to see or address his very credible grievance. Millions more, myself included, think he is extraordinarily brave and committed to improving our nation. The police do target Blacks and treat them differently than they treat Whites. They are also killing and harassing Blacks unnecessarily at an alarming rate. Can you even admit that much Carlos?

Protesting that disgraceful treatment of Blacks is not showing contempt for the flag or the country, it is showing contempt for the disgraceful treatment of Black citizens by our nation's police department. It is a national problem. Black lives are far more important than the playing of a song or a piece of cloth, unless you are a racist and/or a nationalist bigot.

Carlos Ponce

Roberto writes, "he dodged military service by obtaining four student deferments and one medical deferment for some pesky 'bone spurs.' "
Even the uber-Liberal Politifact (July 21, 2015) states:
"To the best of our knowledge, no one has charged Trump with violating the Selective Service law. His student deferments were routine. And unless someone has new information, there is no legal issue with his medical deferment."
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/jul/21/was-trump-draft-dodger/
Is this dodging? No. Looks like Politifact would give Roberto a "Pants on Fire" rating.
Again, Roberto just regurgitates false Democratic Party talking points.
And Roberto, when I registered for the draft my high school senior year I was assigned a student deferment classification (1-S) by the Government which continued through my college years (2-S). No one "obtains" a student deferment. One is assigned a student deferment by the government. As Politifact states this is "routine".


Emile Pope

One thing for certain...he didn't volunteer...
If he was so patriotic, why didn't he leave college and enlist? It was perfectly acceptable to do so and many people did in fact do exactly that. He instead chose to do battle in the jungles of New York against the dreaded VD. You mention that what Trump did in getting his deferment was legal and therefore was perfectly fine. News flash...what Kaepernick did was also perfectly legal. Apparently some people seem to be held to a higher standard than others...

Carlos Ponce

Emile, do you consider EVERYONE who does not enlist UNPATRIOTIC?
Did Emile Pope enlist?
Trump didn't "get" his deferment. It was assigned to him by the government based on the answers given at the time of registering.
The legality of Kaepernick's actions is not in question here. He can protest all he wants. He did however violate the NFL rules found in the NFL Game Operations Manual. But the NFL decided not to enforce those rules. But his actions during the playing of the Anthem indicates a lack of respect for the Anthem, the flag this country to most of Americans.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "Emile, do you consider EVERYONE who does not enlist UNPATRIOTIC? "

As per usual Carlos plays the false dichotomy card wherein there are allegedly only two choices.

==> "He did however violate the NFL rules found in the NFL Game Operations Manual."

It was not a 'rule,' as you have already been informed, it was a policy.

==> " But his actions during the playing of the Anthem indicates a lack of respect for the Anthem, the flag this country to most of Americans."

...to the Americans who don't like Black people getting 'uppity' and demanding equal treatment under the law. Something you apparently could care less about, you are more concerned about etiquette than lives.

Doyle Beard

My Mother taught me as a child there is a time and place for everthing. Its a great feeling to stand, salute the flag and honor all the brave men and women who made this possible. If one wants to protest then do it but cant you just give a little respect during the playing of the Anthem to the people who protected your right to protest. I assume this is too much to ask of selfish people.
Emile I wouldthink you would not want to get on the subject of draft dodgers. A big can of worms you may not want to open,
Respect America and the people who gave us so many rights.

Emile Pope

When you decide that certain people's actions are not only dictated by the law but by the subjective opinions of others as to what they "should" do, you are attempting to diminish their rights as American citizens. Your opinion is not my reality...

Mark Aaron

Doyle: " If one wants to protest then do it but cant you just give a little respect during the playing of the Anthem to the people who protected your right to protest. "

I am one of those people who served to protect those rights and I am perfectly fine with Mr. Kaepernick's protest. I think he is extraordinarily brave and I would have been happy to have him have my back in war. Not so much the whiny nationalists who could care less about their fellow citizens being targeted and abused by the police.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "Even the uber-Liberal Politifact (July 21, 2015) states"

There is nothing particularly liberal about Politifacts Carlos. It is not far right, it is objective, so you just label it liberal, or the even more laughable "uber-liberal." The truth is you hate Politifacts because it is used so effectively to counter your wingnut propaganda.

Kelly Naschke

Do progressive liberals EVER strive for unity or is it just a nonstop barrage of divisiness and discord designed to pit America in groups that battle each other? Roberto’s message doesn’t support one single shred of unity or bringing people together, as is the mantra of the liberal playbook. Even worse, we get to look forward to Neil Barron’s equally separating diatribe that is soon to follow. Can someone wake up Mark Aaron and let him know it’s time for him and his childish emoji to show up so he can begin with his insults and name calling?

Mark Aaron

Kelly: "Do progressive liberals EVER strive for unity or is it just a nonstop barrage of divisiness and discord "

LOL! Talk about being tone deaf to irony.

If you want to see decisiveness you might want to take a look at the current Republican Party who is engaged in a civil war between the establishment Republicans and the crazed Tea Party Republicans.

Kelly: " Can someone wake up Mark Aaron"

Not to worry Kelly, I am ever vigilant and on guard.[tongue]

Mark Aaron

Typo: divisiveness, not decisiveness.

PD Hyatt

Progressive's strive for division, for they know that a house divided can not stand and they want America divided so that they can rule....IMHO they have done a very good job at that for the last 50 years and really stepped up their game over the last 8 years as their hatred of this nation becomes more and more evident....

Mark Aaron

Paul: "Progressive's strive for division, for they know that a house divided can not stand and they want America divided so that they can rule..."

If Progressives strive for division then why is the Democratic Party a melting pot that reflects the diversity of modern America while the Republican Party is almost exclusively an all White party? You have been duped Paul. The facts in front of your face couldn't be more glaring or obvious.

Lisa Gray

Kelly, I was wondering the same thing about the verbose Mr. Aaron! LOL! You are so correct in your assessment. I am really tired of nothing but nastiness from the left. The race card always is thrown down immediately and no positive words are EVER spoken about the good that President Trump and the conservative people in our country do. Keep up the negativity "progressives" ( now that's a laugh) and we will continue to displace democrats in every office.

Emile Pope

Really? So slavery wasn't the "race card"? What about Jim Crow? Segregation? State's rights? Apparently protesting against racism is worst than the act itself...

Kelly Naschke

Hey Emile...news flash...slavery is alive and well in some parts of the world TODAY. We, as Americans abolished it CENTURIES ago. If you are so concerned about slavery, why do you and your ilk sit by and watch it happen while you badmouth the country that ENDED it?

Mark Aaron

Kelly: "Hey Emile...news flash...slavery is alive and well in some parts of the world TODAY."

Your red herring is beginning to stink Kelly.

Mark Aaron

Lisa: " I am really tired of nothing but nastiness from the left."

Then have your party clean up its act and have them stop with their ever present racism.

Lisa Gray

Well the FACT is, that it comes from the LEFT as previously stated. You could argue with a fence post and have become quite tiresome. No substance, just squawk.

Jim Forsythe


On  10/15/1968 Trump was classified as 1-y.
1-Y = Registrant available for military service, but qualified for military only in the event of war or national emergency

 He made a personal choice not to serve, as did many others. If you agree with his choice , then you agree with all the others that did not serve, if they were able. Some get upset with the ones that went to Canada, but they did that for the same reason that people use collage to not serve. The difference is, they could not  receive  a deferment.

Carlos Ponce

Jim posts "He made a personal choice not to serve, as did many others. If you agree with his choice , then you agree with all the others that did not serve, if they were able."
Let's take a look at President Bill Clinton
August 19, 1964 - Clinton registers for the draft
--[Washington Post Sep 13 92]
September 1964 - Clinton, age 18, enters Georgetown University
--[The Comeback Kid, CF Allen and J Portis, p. 20]
November 17, 1964- Clinton is classified 2-S (student deferment).
---[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
March 20, 1968 - Clinton, age 21, is classified 1-A, eligible for induction, as he nears graduation from Georgetown.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
Fall 1968 - Because of the local draft board's continuing postponement of his pre-induction physical, Clinton is able to enroll at Oxford Univ.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
February 2, 1969 - While at Oxford, Clinton finally takes and passes a military physical examination.
--[Washington Times Sep 18 92]
April 1969 - Clinton receives induction notice from the Hot Springs AR draft board. Clinton however claims that the draft board told him to ignore the notice because it arrived after the deadline for induction.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
June-July 1969 - Clinton receives a second induction notice with a July 28 induction date and returns home.
--[Wash Times Sep 18 92]
July 11, 1969 - Clinton's friend at Oxford, Cliff Jackson, writes, "Clinton is feverishly trying to find a way to avoid entering the Army as a drafted private. I have had several of my friends in influential positions trying to pull strings on Bill's behalf."
-- [LA Times Sep 26 92]
December 3, 1969- Bill Clinton thanks a colonel for "saving me from the draft."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/etc/draftletter.html

So Bill Clinton received TWO letters asking him to report for induction. Donald Trump received NO draft notices.

Jim Forsythe

 My point is, every one decides for themselves. You forgot to list all the president that did not serve. Everyone, that had a college deferment, decided what was right for them.. Trump received  four education deferments and one for heal spurs. He decided for himself.

The following presidents did not serve in the military: Presidents John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Martin van Buren, Grover Cleveland, William Howard Taft, Woodrow Wilson, Warren G. Harding, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Bill Clinton,  Barack Obama and Donald Trump. They all decided what was right for them, except for FDR.


Carlos Ponce

Jim posts, "You forgot to list all the president that did not serve." No I did not. MY point is that there was one president asked to report for induction not once but TWICE. But he didn't. But Liberals had no problem with that. Were the others you mention asked to report? And Roberto claims Trump DODGED military service? [rolleyes]

Jim Forsythe

Just s what Trump did was not illegal , what Clinton did, was not illegal. Each were trying not to go into service. 

An Order to Report for Induction from the Garland County Draft Board followed three months later, but because the notice had been sent to England via surface mail it was late in arriving, and the assigned reporting date had already passed. Clinton had begun another school term by then (the academic year at Oxford consisted of three terms rather than two semesters), and the regulations allowed students who received draft notices to finish out their current terms before reporting. He would be obligated to report for induction after the end of the spring term and before his new reporting date of 28 July 1969
Deliberate delay in issuing Clinton’s draft notice, was not unusual consideration granted to Rhodes Scholars:.
He  joined the advanced ROTC program at the University of Arkansas, which had no quotas and was open to graduate students, but since Clinton had already received an induction notice he would have to obtain the approval of Willard Hawkins, the state Selective Service director to enter the program.
Clinton’s draft notice was nullified, and his draft board reclassified him 1-D (reservist deferment) on 7 August 1969
Bill Clinton: U.S. Selective Service System  number 311 ,December 1, 1969

Just as questions were asked about Clinton , questions were asked about Bush and attendance.
If you look at the rest of the Presidents , you may be able to find things on their records.

Carlos Ponce

"He joined the advanced ROTC program at the University of Arkansas"
Problem is he never went to the University of Arkansas nor became a member of their ROTC program. But he applied and was accepted which satisfies most Liberals.
[rolleyes]
October 30, 1969 Clinton was automatically reclassified to 1-A eligible for induction, after he failed to enroll at the University of Arkansas.
"[Colonel Eugene Holmes] charged that Clinton 'purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction'."
"Ex-ROTC Leader Says Clinton Deceived Him, Cheated Military" September 17, 1992
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-09-17/news/mn-796_1_clinton-camp

Jim Forsythe

 
Among excerpts of Holmes' prior published comments,  was an October, 1978, reference in the Arkansas Gazette reporting that Holmes "couldn't recall Clinton's case because there had been thousands of students since then." And, in an October, 1991, Holmes was quoted as saying of Clinton: "He was treated just like I would have treated any other kid."

Holmes  approved Clinton’s plan to go back to Oxford. .
By Clinton’s account, he talked to Colonel Holmes and gained permission to return to Oxford for the second year since the basic training that he was required to attend before beginning advanced ROTC would not start until the following summer. Holmes said later that he allowed Clinton to return to Oxford for “a month or two,” but expected him to enroll in the law school as soon as possible. But a letter that Clinton wrote in December 1969 in which he apologized for not writing more often — “I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month” — is the strongest evidence that Holmes was aware of and approved Clinton’s plan to go back to Oxford. .

Trump and Clinton had high numbers.
Bill Clinton: U.S. Selective Service System  number 311 ,December 1, 1969

Carlos Ponce

With all the young men registered did you expect him to stand out even if he became governor? He registered "William Jefferson Clinton". When the name "Bill Clinton" came up for governor the name didn't click. But once Bill ran for president things began to click in place.

Carlos Ponce

"He was treated just like I would have treated any other kid." I would say the same about one student out of thousands I have taught if I could not remember him at the time. Afterwards looking at yearbooks brings back remembrances. I still have trouble remembering students I taught 40 years ago.

Kelly Naschke

As “activists” like Kapaernic, Roberto, and Emile condemn America, there is some poor little black girl in North Africa that was kidnapped and sold as a sex slave. Where are YOU on that issue Emile?

Bill Broussard

Leroy: Might as well mention someone in New Hampshire just swallowed a gold fish. Makes about as much sense.

Mark Aaron

Kelly "As “activists” like Kapaernic, Roberto, and Emile condemn America, there is some poor little black girl in North Africa..."

Yet again with your stinking red herring and now you add a strawman. You are a busy fellow today Kelly.

Kelly Naschke

Are you seriously ignorant to fact of modern day slavery in North Africa Mark? Your deck is missing more than a few cards pal. Unbelievable how you can come here and make your ignorance so well known.

Mark Aaron

Kelly: "Are you seriously ignorant to fact of modern day slavery in North Africa Mark?"

Your red herring still stinks Kelly.

Bill Broussard

Leroy: Here’s a bit of work that could prove useful to you.

First, look up the word non sequitur. That is what is meant by a “red herring”. While a “red herring” is not a true indicator of any form of pathology, a non sequitur is a diagnostic indicator of schizophrenia. The African slave trade in the middle of a discussion of NFL policy is either a non sequitur or argumentum ad ignorantia.

Hope that’s helpful. Didn’t want you to go away thinking that a red herring was the name of a surf board or some off-brand whiskey

[offtopic][offtopic][offtopic]

Lisa Gray

Kelly, I lived in the Middle East for 4 years. The human trafficking and slavery is quite real and mind boggling. But leftists don't want to say anything bad about the people who practice that certain "religion of peace" that are the main utilizers of such trade. It is quite normal and a week did not go by where I read in the Kuwait Times of some poor domestic killing themselves over their mistreatment.

Bill Broussard

Mark. Kelly is actually Leroy using his wife's account to post. Go figger. Still to be determined is if he wears her clothes while he writes.

Mark Aaron

[thumbup][tongue]

Bill Broussard

I think former Republican Scarbourough hit the spot dead on. Could he be talking about us?

Ala., on Sept. 22. When he mentioned Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), the crowd booed. (The Washington Post)
By Joe Scarborough September 28

Who are you? I’ve got to say that I really don’t know anymore. It’s kind of a strange turn of events since we went to the same public schools across the Deep South, then attended the same state colleges, cheering wildly on Saturdays for our favorite SEC teams, and spent Sunday mornings together in the same Southern Baptist pews. We even went to Training Union on Sunday nights.
Remember how our conversations always seemed to turn to politics? How we criticized Bill Clinton for playing so fast and loose with the truth? And how shamefully Democrats turned a blind eye to his fabrications and outright lies? Man, how could those Democrats sleep at night?
And what about how the guy we voted for, George W. Bush, running up the federal debt and launching ill-planned foreign adventures overseas? We swore that the next time Republicans got in power, we would pressure them to cut spending, attack the debt and put America’s foreign policy on a restrained and reasonable path. After Bush, we grew enraged by President Barack Obama’s efforts to reorder one-sixth of our economy on a straight party-line health-care vote. How reckless was that!
Opinions newsletter
You and I always agreed that Washington Democrats and Republicans were cut from the same cloth, and that we needed to keep both sides honest. We were united by the shared belief that politicians must put country above party, right?

What happened to you?
The guys I came up with in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and northwest Florida for more than 40 years would never boo a former American prisoner of war — especially one who refused to return home until the enemy released every one of his buddies in the prison camp. Southern guys like us loved that “leave no man behind” ethos when John Wayne or Sylvester Stallone exhibited it on movie screens. So why would you even think of booing a man, now fighting for his life, who showed that true grit in real life?
But boo Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) you did, at the behest of President Trump during a rally in Alabama last week.
Mike Allen of Axios further reported this week that Trump has been “physically mocking” the thumbs-down gesture McCain used to deliver the deciding vote against the Republican health-care bill in July. Did that mocking involve an imitation of McCain’s stiff arm movements? In case you haven’t read a newspaper in the 45 years since we played on the same Dixie Youth Baseball team together, McCain got the hell beaten out of him by the communists who held him in the Hanoi Hilton for more than five years

At that same time, Trump was dodging the draft by claiming that bone spurs stopped him from serving his country in uniform. And yet this crippling condition didn’t stop the spoiled Ivy League student from playing football,
tennis and golf. After four draft deferments, Trump graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 1968 on the same day 40 U.S. servicemen were killed in Vietnam.

Meanwhile, McCain continued receiving the beatings that would forever leave him incapable of lifting his arms over his head. He kept enduring torture because he refused to leave his band of brothers behind.
Do you have that kind of character? If you booed McCain at last week’s rally, don’t bother answering. Someone has obviously failed you in your life; you probably need to spend some time figuring out who that was. And if you still go to church, you may also want to pray for all those around you who put tribal politics ahead of basic humanity.

Then maybe you should drive home and tell your children the story of John McCain’s sacrifice. If you can teach your children that lesson of heroism, there’s a chance they might grow up to have more character than the president you now praise.

Don Schlessinger

I wonder if Torres or Emile Pope ever served in uniform? Tell us Robert and Emile what branch of the military did you serve. If being in the military is the only way for a man to be a patriot tell us about your service.

To answer your next question Emile, my time, 6 years active and 22 TXARNG.

Carlos Ponce

Reason why Kaepernick isn't on any team.
Coaches are afraid of the following scenario:
Fourth down, Seconds left on the clock, Ball inside the 10. Kaepernick's team needs a touchdown to win. A field goal won't work with the time left. Kaepernick walks out of the huddle and takes the snap. Opposing team bursts into song, "Oh say can you see....." Kaepernick takes a knee.[wink]

Jim Forsythe

Reason why Kaepernick isn't on any team.
Certainly he’s good enough to be a backup. … But most teams  have a good No. 2, a guy that fits their system that we have familiarity with the system. Kaepernick was  perfect for San Francisco as a backup his last year there. They were willing to build around him, which he needs. He’s not a pocket passer. Kaepernick almost has to be in a place where they’ll build a system for him, and teams don’t do that for
backups.
What one owner said.
“But at the end of the day, we’re part of the ultimate meritocracy. So if someone feels like this guy can help win games, he’ll be in the league.”
• Executive “From our end, it never got down to [going to the owner]. To me, the protests, all that, it wasn’t even a factor for us. It was the ability to fit within our offense. He doesn’t throw the ball great, he’s more of an on-the-move, zone-read type of quarterback. He needs to be in a specific system.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "Reason why Kaepernick isn't on any team."

Was that supposed to be funny Carlos?

Diane Turski

Claiming that this legal type of protest is against the flag, anthem, mom & apple pie is just another deflection by the deflector in chief! Wake up and stop being Trump Chumps!

Carlos Ponce

No one mentioned mom and apple pie, Turski.[beam]

Doyle Beard

before I ever hear of Donald I was honoring the flag and saying stop being a Trump Chump is just downright stupid.The only reason I voted for Trump was because of what was on the other side.Trump won only because Hillary lost because of so many reasons. The party could not see past her character.

Carlos Ponce

NFL RULES:
"To understand the rule, it's important to know that the NFL operates under two different codes of conduct. One is the league's rulebook, which pertains to anything that happens within the game, such as coaches challenges or penalties.

The other is the NFL's game operations manual, which details how the games are run, including RULES regarding the national anthem.

According to the game operations manual, the national anthem must be played prior to every game, and all players must be present on the sidelines when it is played.

It also says that players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking."
http://www.ketv.com/article/amidst-protests-many-question-nfls-rules-regarding-national-anthem/12473475
Now, if the NFL refuses to enforce their own rules......[rolleyes]

Jim Forsythe

You are confusing the 2016 version with the 2017 version.
2016   
The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the NFL League Rulebook. It states:
‘The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem. During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition … It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.’
However, no such wording appears in the 2017 version of the Official Playing Rules of the National Football League (which the NFL also sometimes refers to as an “operations manual”): Pages 62 and 63 contain only regulations about the enforcement of fouls committed on the field during gameplay, and nowhere else does that document specify anything about the either the playing of the national anthem prior to games or the required behavior of players and team personnel during that ceremony. In fact, the rulebook makes no mention of the national anthem at all.

Carlos Ponce

"In fact, the rulebook makes no mention of the national anthem at all.'
It wouldn't. There are TWO Manuals, one a set of rules when the game is in play and the Game Operations Manual which has rules governing pre-game, etc.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "the Game Operations Manual which has rules governing pre-game, etc."

I have yet to see a link to that alleged manual.

Jim Forsythe

"Now, if the NFL refuses to enforce their own rules" If you look close, you will see the words, should, may, to leave room for the NFL to run their league the way they think is best. If you want the rules changed , contact the NFL rules committee , they usually meet in December.

"During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses."

Andy Brown

Don't forget the players are uinionized and have a collective bargaining agreement with the NFL. If a player is fired are disciplined they have a right to arbitration and could still be owed what they signed for. Sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth considering the infraction.

Jim Forsythe

Andy , you are right.

Carlos Ponce

Jim, "should" is the past tense of SHALL.

Jim Forsythe

Thanks , Grammar Nazi

Carlos Ponce

Jim Forsythe posted "If you look close, you will see the words, should, may, to leave room for the NFL to run their league the way they think is best."
That's why I point out that "should" is the past tense of shall. So indicate that it may be optional or as you put it "to leave room". Not really considering what "should" really means. But the NFL owners are afraid of being called "racist" when it comes to dealing with ethnic groups. And they should not. They should stick to the rules with no apologies. If they don't like the rules in the Game Operations Manual they have approved then they should change them. But if they do they would lose paying customers.
I am no "grammar NAZI". Just pointing the fallacy in your post.

Jim Forsythe

See the word should below? If it bothers you, contact the NFL!  

"During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses."

Sharon Stratman

"Shall" and "should" indicate a preference. "Will" and "must" indicate a requirement.

Jim Forsythe

Carlos
." If they don't like the rules in the Game Operations Manual approved then they should change them "
They did, that's why, should, and may, is now included. If you do not like what they are doing , quit watching the games.
Contact the NFL, if you want them to change it. They meet in December.

"The NFL rulebook makes no mention of the national anthem. But the game operations manual does.
Here’s what the game operations manual says regarding the national anthem, according to an NFL spokesperson:"
‘The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.
‘During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.’
 

Mark Aaron

Should: used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected
"with an early start, they should be here by noon"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/should

Should, like many words, has more than one definition.

Carlos Ponce

Sharon posts"Shall" and "should" indicate a preference."
"Thou Shall Not Kill" means you have a preference to kill or not? I don't think so.

Carlos Ponce

Jim posts, "They did." No they did not. The rules are still there in the Game Operations Manual. They do not enforce them for reasons I gave earlier.

Carlos Ponce

"Thou shall not kill [murder]," as opposed to "I prefer that you not kill [murder]."
Not quite the same. Hmmmm [unsure]

Sharon Stratman

God gave me free will, Carlos, didn't he give it to you? All of us can kill if we want to. What God's preference may be on the matter is something else entirely.

Carlos Ponce

Sharon posts: "God gave me free will, Carlos, didn't he give it to you? All of us can kill if we want to. What God's preference may be on the matter is something else entirely."
The actual word in Hebrew translates as "murder". God does not want us to murder but I see killing is on your mind.[scared]

Carlos Ponce

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/shemot-exodus-chapter-20
The Book of Shemot (Exodus): Chapter 20
"13: Thou shalt not murder; Thou shalt not commit adultery ; Thou shalt not steal ; Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

Carlos Ponce

Matthew19: 18
NIV Jesus replied, "You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony....
NLT And Jesus replied: "'You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely...."
English Standard And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness....
Berean Study Jesus answered, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness..."
New American Standard And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS...."
Holman Christian Jesus answered: Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness...."
International Standard Jesus said, "'You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not give false testimony....
See More at:
http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-18.htm
Shall not, do not must not - ALL THE SAME.


Jim Forsythe

"Carlos Ponce Oct 3, 2017 3:06pm
Jim posts, "They did." No they did not. The rules are still there in the Game Operations Manual. They do not enforce them for reasons I gave earlier."

Carlo,
"The rules are still there in the Game Operations Manual." You are reading the old Manual. The NFL has made this clear, that it's their Manual and their Business. If it was your Business, you could make the rules. If no one follows the Game Operations Manual, the NFL will rule on it. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has the last say.

"It’s important to know that NFL football games are governed by multiple codes of conduct. One is the NFL rulebook; another is the NFL game operations manual. The rulebook is concerned with in-game actions by players and coaches (like scoring, penalties, challenges and so on), whereas the game-operations manual dictates how NFL games should be run in the bigger-picture organizational sense.
“The league’s Game Operations Department uses the manual to govern the conduct of home clubs, to ensure they protect players and provide the conditions for a fair and fan-friendly contest,” reads the NFL’s website. “Clubs face warnings and other penalties for noncompliance.”
The NFL rulebook makes no mention of the national anthem. But the game operations manual does.
Here’s what the game operations manual says regarding the national anthem, according to an NFL spokesperson:
‘The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.‘During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.’ "  http://www.snopes.com/must-nfl-players-stand/
What has the NFL said?
The NFL said Monday that it would not punish teams that skipped the national anthem before their games Sunday.“There will be no discipline handed down this week,” spokesman Joe Lockhart told reporters Monday. He added that the NFL is not considering discontinuing playing the national anthem ahead of games.
“Players are encouraged but not required to stand during the playing of the National Anthem,” the NFL said in 2016 when former San Francisco 49ers player Colin Kaepernick garnered national attention for kneeling in protest when the anthem was played
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/09/25/trump-blasts-athletes-protesting-national-anthem-heres-what-nfl-says.html 

 The NFL’s Game Operations Manual says both teams must be on the field for the playing of the anthem, but that players “should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking.” Should and must mean two different things, obviously, and the NFL confirmed last year that there is no requirement placed on players to stand for the song.
https://sports.yahoo.com/president-trump-think-nfl-owners-122859534.html 

But, according to some excellent research and reporting by the Indiana Star, that quote is not actually from the 2017 Official Playing Rules of the National Football League.Instead, it's a part of the league's game operations manual, which is distributed to every NFL team. So, technically, "it’s policy, it’s not a rule," NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy told the Indiana Star.
"I think where people are getting confused is, rules, that’s like holding or defensive pass interference, that’s a rule. This is policy."
McCarthy told the Indiana Star that players who didn't take the field or protested during the anthem would not be penalized.

If you disagree, contact Brian McCarthy - NFL.com. 


Carlos Ponce

You are referring to the 93 page NFL Rules booklet. The 200 page Game Operations Manual contains the rules relevant to player conduct during the playing of the anthem.

Jim Forsythe

The NFL’s Game Operations Manual says both teams must be on the field for the playing of the anthem, but that players “should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking.” Should and must mean two different things, obviously, and the NFL confirmed last year that there is no requirement placed on players to stand for the song.
https://sports.yahoo.com/president-trump-think-nfl-owners-122859534.html 

Carlos Ponce

The number of the self centered outnumber those of good character. Sad but true. It doesn't take much to find a longer list of NFL bad boys.

Jarvis Buckley

No one respects Bill Broussards knowledge of Galveston Texas more than me. I have no respect for him
speaking of our president as he does.
While I respect Bill for his knowledge of Galveston. It saddens me his harsh words towards our president. As for
Mr. Torres I think he is so mean spirited. It saddens me.

Mark Aaron

Jarvis: " It saddens me his harsh words towards our president."

It saddens most Americans that Trump is president. A majority, like Bill, believe Trump is unfit to hold office.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/352718-poll-majority-say-trump-not-fit-to-serve-as-president

Bill Broussard

Jarvis: I re-read my posts and while I was a bit uncharitable to "Kelly" I did not say anything about the President. I did post an editorial by Mr. Scarborough that I thought made a good point: What in the heck are people doing booing a war hero like Senator McCain?

Now here is my opinion: Watch the PBS series on Viet Nam. I was at Texas A&M for much of that time and road the bus to Houston to get my physical when the time came just like so many others. When you listen to the veterans from that war be interviewed-men who lived through so much and were wounded so many times--each will say at some point they fought to preserve the right for people at home to protest. Many, after three or four tours, came home and joined the protests....how they did that after killing so many Viet Cong and watching so many of their friends die is simply beyond belief and an act of pure conscious.
Todays right to protest is so low grade compared to those days I'm surprised anyone is even making an issue of it. I do think that any president of the United States is well beyond his job description when he singles a specific industry and encourages a boycott. I would not be surprised if the NFL owners sued him individually for Tortious Interference with their business.
Targeting a single business for ruin and to do so in spite of people's right to peaceful protest is what the English did to us and the French did in Viet Nam.

I think Mr. Trump is way over the line on this one but then again, I grew up in a time where protest was allowable unless you were in Chicago at a convention.

I'm pretty conservative but I do not see the Presidents word against the NFL as any more or less than Alabama cops meeting walkers on the bridge, Chicago police beating people in the street or just as bad, Berkley student threatening conservative speakers. All of it is an insult to our constitutional principles.

For god's sake, please hear me correctly: I am not condoning what I am about to say but it is the law of the land! Our supreme court has defended flag burning as a free speech act. Kneeling as a private employee for a privately owned company is seems trivial compared to what has been legally defined as free speech. What is nice about that decision is that it also upholds your and my right to not burn the flag!

The editorial I posted was of interest because it identified a real and genuine cultural change in the South. We would never have booed a war hero where I came from no matter how much I disagreed with their political opinion. It would have been blasphemy to say the hero's were those that did not get captured.

David Doe

Sure are enough differing "Opinions" on here. We all agree that they have the right to protest (even if most disagree) One thing we might want to concentrate on: The majority of the public disagrees with the way the players are handling this and are going to vote with their pocketbook. Budweiser is already talking about pulling out as an NFL sponsor. The NFL owners are worried because revenue is down and ratings are continuing to go down (since 2015) I know i stopped watching last year. The NBA reports some owners are losing money even with profit sharing. We All know the prices and salaries are undeniably high. At this rate the owners are going to take the hit 1st, but from there it will be the players, and I'm not sure if they realize where this is headed. If I were the players I would think long and hard about protesting when your business is a form of entertainment. When entertainment ceases to be just that, most folks move on to other forms, and we All know there are plenty of other forms of entertainment. Players: Be Very, Very careful what you wish for, because you might get more than you bargained for.

Mark Aaron

David: "The majority of the public disagrees with the way the players are handling this and are going to vote with their pocketbook."

In a word, no. From USA Today:

_Most Americans say the protests by NFL players during the National Anthem are appropriate, a USA TODAY/Suffolk University Poll finds, and they say, by overwhelming margins, that President Trump's heated criticism of them are not. Two-thirds in the poll of registered voters, by 68%-27%, say Trump's call for NFL owners to fire the players and fans to boycott their games is inappropriate. That includes a third of Republicans as well as nine of 10 Democrats. By 51%-42%, those surveyed say the players' protests are appropriate._

Keith Gray

Mark you ignore the fact that the revenues are declining... but you bring up polls? Did you think they are polling from folks who do not financially feed the NFL... and didn't you learn anything about polls from the last presidential election?

Carlos Ponce

http://operations.nfl.com/media/2725/2017-playing-rules.pdf
Page 30 Rule 5 Section 4 Article 8
The League will not grant permission for any club or player to wear, display, or otherwise convey messages, through helmet decals, arm bands, jersey patches, or other items affixed to game uniforms or equipment, which relate to political activities or causes, other non-football events, causes or campaigns, or charitable causes or campaigns.

Now the Game Operations Manual is much more specific to conduct during the Anthem that relates to "political activities". It is found in that rule book on page A62-A63. A partial picture of that rule in the Manual is found at:
http://redpillpoppers.com/page-a62-63-nfls-game-operations-manual-says-terrible-news-anthem-kneelers/
But it's contents are confirmed by WAPO and other sources:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/24/were-not-going-to-play-politics-steelers-mike-tomlin-says-team-wont-take-the-field-for-anthem/

Jim Forsythe

You really use redpillpoppers.com/ , really. This is what I found at red pill poppers., your site.
The Washington Post cites the specific rule pertaining to player behavior found on pages A62-63 of the league’s game operations manual:
“The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.
“During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”

It says ,should and may, so what is your point.

Carlos Ponce

" It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. "
The fans have judged and they want the players standing with hand over heart during the anthem. If you take a knee during the anthem it shows disrespect for the anthem, the flag and this country. Note that the number of players taking a knee, raising a fist, etc. is dwindling. They're getting the message. But Liberal forum posters aren't.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "The fans have judged and they want the players standing with hand over heart during the anthem. If you take a knee during the anthem it shows disrespect for the anthem, the flag and this country. Note that the number of players taking a knee, raising a fist, etc. is dwindling. They're getting the message. But Liberal forum posters aren't."

Carlos, ever the lying propagandist. In fact the public supports the players protest and detest Trump's demagoguery.

_Most Americans say the protests by NFL players during the National Anthem are appropriate, a USA TODAY/Suffolk University Poll finds, and they say, by overwhelming margins, that President Trump's heated criticism of them are not. Two-thirds in the poll of registered voters, by 68%-27%, say Trump's call for NFL owners to fire the players and fans to boycott their games is inappropriate. That includes a third of Republicans as well as nine of 10 Democrats. By 51%-42%, those surveyed say the players' protests are appropriate._

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/10/02/usa-today-poll-americans-say-trump-wrong-nfl-protests/721809001/

Carlos Ponce

"should" - used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness Oxford Dictionary
used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency -Merriam Webster
simple past tense of shall -must; ought Dictionary .com
"shall" -expressing a strong assertion or intention, expressing an instruction or command
There are instances where it does mean a suggestion to do something. Interesting that the progressive Liberals take it as a suggestion. [rolleyes]

Jim Forsythe

Sharon Stratman Oct 3, 2017 9:18am
"Shall" and "should" indicate a preference. "Will" and "must" indicate a requirement."
I'm sure the Lawyers for the NFL would be happy to talk to you about, what these and other words means to them.

It's up to the NFL to run the league the way they want, not someone who has no clue what all 32 Team owners want. If you want to change what they have decided is best for them, contact the NFL.
I'm sure this will be on their plate to discuss in December at the rule committee meeting, and they may change it back to not requiring players to be on the side lines during The National Anthem. They will not change it officially until that time, if that's what they want. 

A Business has a right to run the way they want , if it does not break any laws . 
Are you pro Business, or do you want the Government to run all Businesses?
Are you going to require every Businesses to have all employees assemble , Play The National Anthem and have all stand and have hand over heart? If not, why not? This is what you are trying to require of the NFL.

The NFL puts a product out, and it's up to each to decide if they want to watch.
 The Steelers have found a way not to knell, and you are not happy.
You have stated that you do not watch the NFL, so why does it matter to you, if they stay in the locker room?

Were you upset in 2008, about players staying in the locker room , if not, why does it matter to you now?

 


.

Carlos Ponce

"Are you pro Business, or do you want the Government to run all Businesses?" Keep the customer satisfied. The customers aren't satisfied; not those who attend, not those who view and not those who advertise nor televise. And don't quote polls, please. Check the demographics of those polls. They're way off base. (No baseball pun intended.)

Mark Aaron

Carlos: " And don't quote polls, please. Check the demographics of those polls. They're way off base. "

Poor Carlos, still reduced to disparaging the polls which consistently show him to be a lying propagandist.

Jim Forsythe

"The customers aren't satisfied" If people are not satisfied, they should not go to the games, or spend their money on the NFL. Other will take their place.
The Steelers have  98.9% average attendance, Cowboys 115.7% average attendance and sold out for the rest of the year, 
Texans 101.1% average attendance and sold out for the rest of the year. The Teams that are moving, the average attendance for them is down because of the moves. This is causing the average attendance for the NFL to decrease.

Again the NFL is a Business, they have decided what is best for their Business.
If you do not like they way they are running their Business , do not go to the games, do not watch the games.
Why are you worried that the NFL may lose profits?  Are you worried about Sears losing money?

The Steelers have found a way not to knell, and you are not happy.
You have stated that you do not watch the NFL, so why does it matter to you, if they stay in the locker room?
Were you upset in 2008, about players staying in the locker room , if not, why does it matter to you now?

The $3.2 billion in league-wide income is $500 million more than the combined earnings of teams in the NBA, NHL and MLB.
The average NFL franchise is worth $2.5 billion, up 8% by FORBES’ count over last year. The Dallas Cowboys were the only NFL team worth $2 billion five years ago. Now all but five of the NFL’s 32 teams are worth at least $2 billion (the Buffalo Bills bring up the rear at $1.6 billion).
   Many teams have waiting list for tickets.
The Patriots rank as the NFL’s second most valuable team at $3.7 billion, up 9% after their stunning 34-28 comeback, overtime victory in Super Bowl 51. . The team has a paid ($100 deposit) season ticket waiting list of over 70,000.
Most NFL teams have a waiting list for season tickets. So for most NFL teams, the application fee is $100 per person to be added to the waiting list in order to be notified when a season ticket becomes available. As one example, the waiting list is currently 5-10 years for the Seattle Seahawks football team.
That’s what Green Bay Packers fans face. Seventy-four thousand fans are in line for season tickets that have been sold out since 1960. It’s not much better in New York. There, 70,000 Giants fans await season tickets, and can expect to do so for 10 years.
8 NFL teams have no waiting list for season tickets.

Carlos Ponce

Jim, I'm talking about the OVERALL NFL picture. Sure a few teams do well but look at ALL the teams.

Mark Aaron

Carlos: "Jim, I'm talking about the OVERALL NFL picture. Sure a few teams do well but look at ALL the teams. "

Moving the goal posts Carlos?

Jim Forsythe

"OVERALL NFL picture"
All but 8 NFL teams have not sold out of their product, 26 have sold out, with a waiting list for tickets. How many Businesses sell out of 100%  of their product in 26 out of 32 of their sites, and have a waiting list in 26 out of 32 sites  for their products  .This will change when Las Vegas Raiders arrive in Vegas ,2019, as they will sell out also. They are one of the underperforming teams now.

The average NFL franchise is worth $2.5 billion, up 8% by FORBES’ count over last year . How many Business can match this?
Which team are you saying is doing bad? Maybe you were thinking of the Bills.

The Bills were the last on the list of 32 teams.  They had a 7% increase in value in one year, and you call this bad. All the rest did better. 

Buffalo Bills
 currant value is $1.6 B , 1yr value change of 7%  
Revenue $352 M  
operating revenue $53 M

Emile Pope

You forgot to add the rest of the definition..." typically when criticizing someone's actions"...

Carlos Ponce

Let's see the home attendance:
Dallas Cowboys 2017 92,526 avg 2016 92,539 Down but not much difference
Green Bay 2017 78,355 2016 78,215 up
Washington 77,904 from 78,304 down by over 1000
NY Jets 77,562 from 78,160 down by over 500
NY Giants 77,004 from 78,789 down by over 1000
Denver 76,717 from 76,774 down
Kansas City 74,779 from 73,328 up by over 1400
Carolina 73,948 from 73,792 up
New Orleans 73,168 from 73,109 up
Houston 71,757 from 71,868 down
Atlanta 71,049 from 69,999 up
Baltimore 70,865 from 71,102 Down
San Francisco 70,178 from 70,178 Same
Philadelphia 69,596 from 69,596 Same
Tennessee 69,108 from 64,659 up by over 4000
Buffalo 68,808 from 68,509 up
Seattle 68,800 from 69,073 down
Cleveland 67,431 from 64,311 up by over 3000
Minnesota 66,575 from 66,786 down
Pittsburgh 65,971 from 64,312 up by over 1000
New England 65,878 from 66,829 down
Arizona 64,611 from 64,831 down
Indianapolis 63,244 from 65,549 down by over 2000
Detroit 62,098 from 60,792 up
Chicago 62,014 from 60,368 up by over 1000
Jacksonville 61,709 from 61,915 down
Tampa Bay 60,278 from 60,624 down
LA Rams 58,370 from 74,121 down but they played only 1 home game in 2016
Oakland 54,729 from 54,584 up
Cincinnati 54,098 from 60,511 down
Los Angeles Chargers 25,380 from 57,024 down
Miami ? from 65,512
http://www.espn.com/nfl/attendance/_/year/2017
http://www.espn.com/nfl/attendance/_/year/2016
So in 32 markets attendance is down in 17, up in 12, same in 2.Miami ?
So OVERALL, attendance is down in most markets, some just a little, some big time.

Jim Forsythe

"Let's see the home attendance": is  not the same as Tickets sold. How many of the games were on Thursday night ? How many of the games were between teams with losing records? How many were played in areas that had Hurricanes? 
26 out of 32 of their sites have sold out. Some people did not show up. 

Again the NFL is a Business, they have decided what is best for their Business. 
If you do not like they way they are running their Business , do not go to the games, do not watch the games, do not talk about them and give them free publicity.
Why are you worried that the NFL may lose profits?  
The Steelers have found a way not to knell, and you are not happy.
You have stated that you do not watch the NFL, so why does it matter to you, if they stay in the locker room?
Were you upset in 2008, about players staying in the locker room , if not, why does it matter to you now?

Now you are worried about attendance , why?
The NFL's profit has increased each year, and is projected, to increase for years to come .

Carlos Ponce

"No show" indicates disapproval. Remember, every year has "no shows" for various reasons. There were Thursday Night games in 2016, right? Have the number of games played each Thursday Night increased? And there were teams with losing records last year too. I noted Miami was hit by a hurricane so they have no home attendance figures.
"so why does it matter to you, if they stay in the locker room?"
Pro- football players used to exemplify America's greatest athletes especially in character. Most no longer do. In the past we looked up to players like Roger Staubach who went to Vietnam rather than play pro ball. He could have easily slipped out of his USN commitment but chose not to. It would have sent the wrong message. There are few heroes out there the young can look up to like JJ Watt but there are too many self centered players on the field.
And what do you hear when players take a knee or raise a fist? BOOOOOOOOOOOO! And those are the ones who went to the game.
When a team asked the audience to lock arms during the Anthem as a show of unity a few did but the majority stood at attention with hand over heart, veterans saluting.

Carlos Ponce

"Why didn't TV networks show angry, booing NFL fans Sunday or Monday?"
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/nfl-tv-networks-deliberately-avoided-booing-fans-cbs-nbc-fox-espn-monday-night-football/wp37jk7eoiha1p7ktogwfftzs

"NFL fans booed players for kneeling before national anthem "
https://www.salon.com/2017/10/01/nfl-fans-booed-players-for-kneeling-before-national-anthem-and-standing-for-it/
"Football fans booed NFL players on Sunday even though they stood during the national anthem. Their jeers were directed at the demonstrations that took place before the anthem was played and the flag was displayed."

Jim Forsythe


I see you included a Hail Mary, in your response.
"No show" indicates" someone that did not show up. Unless someone ask each person why they did not show , it is just speculation.
It has only been 8 years since players could stay in the locker room until the game , (until the last few weeks). Were the one's that stayed in the lock room at that time, a bad person by your standards, since they were not protesting.
Are the fans, that do not stand, the same type of  bad person?
Is Deshaun Watson a hero by your standards? How many of the NFL players stood last week? The NFL has many players that have exemplify character. But since you are not a fan , you may not know about them.

This is a list from last year of a few of the players with character. Many more belong .
Pierre Garcon, Jurrell Casey, Vincent Jackson, Cliff Avril, Torrey Smith,
Jeremiah Attaochu, Arthur Moats, Jon Dorenbos ,  Dan Williams, 
Brandon Marshall, Eli Manning, Roman Harper, Rob Gronkowski, Chad Greenway, Mike Pouncey, Johnny Hekker, Alex Smith, Julius Thomas, Joe Reitz, Jayrone Elliott, Don Carey, Virgil Green, Sean Lee, Joe Thomas, Andy Dalton,
Sam Acho, Greg Olsen, Eric Wood, Steve Smith Sr.,Matt Ryan,Larry Fitzgerald, 

Carlos Ponce

Jim, you indicated "no shows" was a reason for a decline in attendance from 2016 to 2017. Problem in your reasoning is that there were also "no shows" in 2016 and previous years.
I recognize only one name in your list of players with good character but I'll take your word on them. What I ask is, "Is that all?" I would hope that there would be more of good character and that they outnumber the visible clowns on the field. Praying that your list is incomplete for the sake of the youngsters who follow the game.

Jim Forsythe

Carlos said  " Pro- football players used to exemplify America's greatest athletes especially in character. Most no longer do." I do not know your definition of most, but the list I posted was just one player from each team.  
 Carlos asked  "What I ask is, "Is that all? "How many do you want?

"football players used to exemplify America's greatest athletes especially in character. Most no longer do"
How can you say that, when you do not know who is playing .  I hope you know what NFL PLAY 60 is  The National Football League's campaign to encourage kids to be active for 60 minutes a day in order to help reverse the trend of childhood obesity P.layer go to Schools to encourage kids to use the program.

Each player on the list that I posted before are just impressive as the following men.
Deshaun Watson First year starting Quarterback Houston Texans , gave all of his first starting paycheck to 3 family's that lost everything in Hurricane Harvey.
You do know who Walter Payton was?
Larry Fitzgerald - Winner  of the Walter NFL Man of the year 2016
Eli Manning -  Winner of the Walter Payton NFL Man of the year 2016

Just one example of the quality of the men on the list.
Rob Gronkowski  If you do not know him ,you have no idea about players in the NFL. How can you comment about players, when you do not know who they are, and what they do. You do know who Gronk is?

Rob Gronkowski has been a larger than life presence in the New England sports world since being drafted by the Patriots in the second round of the 2010 NFL Draft. Now in his seventh season, the 6'6'', 265-pound tight end is a four-time Pro Bowler and has been selected as a First-team All-Pro four times. 
Rob's physical stature and impact on the football field is matched by his commitment to giving back to children and families off the field. Since he first arrived in New England, he has consistently been active  in the community. 
 
The team's "Community Tuesdays", not just Rob. This is just some of what Rob does.
  As part of the team's "Community Tuesdays", Rob can always be found bringing a smile to somebody's face. He has visited dozens of schools across the region  to promote the importance of living a healthy lifestyle and to lead students through a PLAY 60 ultimate gym class. Rob has even helped to provide play spaces to children by building new playgrounds in underserved communities across New England.
During the holidays, Rob is always eager to spread some cheer to children and families in need. Whether it's helping to deliver more than 200 Thanksgiving meals to families in Boston, throwing a holiday party for 250 children or taking teenagers on a holiday shopping spree, he is always willing and able to put a smile on the faces of people who need it most.  He has  teamed with the Make-A-Wish Foundation. He started the Gronk Nation Youth Foundation.


Carlos Ponce

Jim Forsythe came up with only a handful. How many do I want? ALL NFL players. The one NFL player I taught is of good character but he's left the game.

Jim Forsythe

Houston Texans Head Coach Bill O’Brien reached out to a former Penn State player Devon Still now a Cincinnati Bengal. O’Brien did not coach Still at Penn State but met him at Happy Valley while the Head Coach of the Nitanny Lions. Still’s 4-year old daughter, Leah, is battling neuroblastoma, a rare form of cancer since the beginning of football season. O’Brien and the Texans sent Leah a special surprise on behalf of himself and the Texans to brighten her day.
O’Brien said, "We just thought from our organization to his family it would be a nice gesture. We heard she liked Frozen.” 
Seattle Seahawks running back Christine Michael is about to make a young ladies’ prom dreams come true.
Michael will be taking 18-year-old Taylor Kirkwood from Anahuac High School in Texas to prom in a couple of weeks. Taylor, who suffers from autism and has already endured surgery for scoliosis keeps a positive attitude on life, recently found out that Michael plans to escort her to the dance.
Philadelphia Eagles: Chris Long is helping fund scholarships in Charlottesville Philadelphia Eagles defensive end Chris Long is donating his first six game checks of the 2017 NFL season to fund scholarships in his hometown of Charlottesville, Virginia.
Long is partnering with the Boys & Girls Clubs of Central Virginia and St. Anne’s Belfield School to provide two seven-year scholarships to Virginia middle school students.
Pittsburgh Steelers: Alejandro Villanueva will donate money from jersey sales to USO
Villanueva is donating all money from his jersey sales to the USO and other military non-profit organizations, something he has reportedly always done. However, with his new-found popularity, Villanueva’s donation might be much larger than it normally is.
Titans cornerback Logan Ryan
.  His acts of kindness, beginning with his compassion for dogs, which became a natonwide story after Ryan married his college sweetheart, Ashley Bragg Ryan, in St. Lucia. The couple asked all their wedding guests – and all their friends back home – to donate to a local animal shelter, Help Animals in St. Lucia, instead of giving gifts.
The Bears even have their own charitable arm, Bears Care, which is part on their community corner. You can also find more about this Twitter @BearsOutreach.
. Jordan Howard is involved with the Pulmonary Fibrosis Foundation.
Former Bear great, Charles Tillman, has his Cornerstone Foundation.
Sam Acho and his family does missionary work in Nigeria.
The @chicagobears' Zach Miller stopped by to surprise our patients this morning at Advocate Condell!
Thank you to @TheRealStaley​, Jerry Azumah & @BearsOutreach for bringing "Bear Hugs" to our pediatric patients. http://bit.ly/2fa4p1P
A gesture that seems as small as Washington’s Rob Kelley and Keith Marshall buying a child an Xbox leaves a lasting impression, too — not just on that kid, but on the fans who find out about this random act of kindness. There’s so much NFL players do that they don’t seek credit for, but means the world to the people on the receiving end.
Arizona Cardinals: Patrick Peterson is one of the NFL’s most generous players Some of the highlights of what Peterson does around the Arizona community and beyond provided by the Arizona Cardinals:
Peterson created the “Foundation for Success” which aims to provide low-income and inner city youth with opportunities and resources to reach their full potential. The foundation hopes to implement an excellent balance for community development.Peterson along with his wife, Antonique, visited Haiti as guests of Mission of Hope.In January of 2015, Peterson unveiled the first “Patrick’s Corner” of his foundation for students and families at Nevitt Elementary School in Phoenix.
Atlanta Falcons: Vic Beasley aims to fight childhood cancer with the Rally Foundation
The Rally Foundation is a non-profit based in Atlanta that works to raise money for research toward a cure, new and innovative treatments, and to help support families as they battle childhood cancer. It’s not limited to any type of cancer. Any childhood cancer is a challenge Rally, and Beasley, are ready to take on.
Baltimore Ravens: Anthony Levine Sr. is using a rivalry to raise money for students
Not only are the Baltimore Ravens going head-to-head against the Pittsburgh Steelers this weekend, but a player from both teams are competing to raise money for their respective charities! Anthony Levine Sr. and Martavis Bryant are going against one another in an attempt to raise more money for charity.

Jim Forsythe

Buffalo Bills: Bills players support a variety of charities
Buffalo Rumblings put together a running list of the causes the players donate their time and money to. Here’s one of many:
LeSean McCoy is a community leader through his foundation Shades of Greatness, Inc. He assists people and families suffering from ALS, also known as Lou Gehrig’s disease. He’s held four annual charity softball games, the most recent two at Frontier Field in Rochester, NY.
Carolina Panthers: Charles Johnson gives back to Georgia hometown and to Charlotte
One of Johnson’s biggest areas of service has been providing college scholarships to high school students at his alma mater, Hawkinsville High School. Johnson’s charitable actions don’t just apply to the Hawkinsville, GA area, either. He’s also done some good work in the Charlotte community. He’s currently in the process of a $3.3 million project to convert an old firehouse in Charlotte to a restaurant.
He’s also built affordable housing units for seniors in both Columbia and Rock Hill, SC and has plans to build more of them in the future.
Cncinnati Bengals: Andy Dalton helps bring prom to people with disabilities
From Carlos Dunlap’s unbelievable literacy campaign, to the Marvin Lewis Community Fund’s “Learning is Cool” initiative, to Michael Johnson and Dunlap’s Back to School fair, to dozens of other charitable endeavors Bengals players take part in around the community, rarely a week goes by without some form of community involvement from members of the Bengals’ organization.
Last week was no different as Andy Dalton and his wife, Jordan Dalton, were special guests at The Royal Prom. The Daltons welcomed guests and took part in the evening’s activities.
Cleveland Browns: Players surprise local kids on youth flag football teams
On Tuesday, three members of the Browns -- wide receivers Ricardo Louis and Rashard Higgins and safety Ibraheim Campbell — joined local members of the Cleveland Police and Fire Departments to surprise kids at their youth flag football practice outside Michael Zone Recreation Center.
Dallas Cowboys: Cowboys participate in charitable work year round
. The Cowboys quarterback is one:Dak Prescott is doing work for finding a cure for cancer. It’s a personal issue for him.
“Losing my mom, only a sophomore in college, 20 years old,” Prescott said on ABC’s Good Morning America. “Everything I do in life is to try to honor my mom.”
“It takes a community to fight cancer,” says the Ready Raise Rise website. “Ready. Raise. Rise. is spreading the word about Immuno-Oncology research and bringing together everyone impacted by the disease to support the community.”
Denver Broncos: Brandon Marshall is creating positive change in the community
After he first kneeled for the anthem on Sept. 8, 2016, Marshall met with Denver police chief Robert White in what began an ongoing dialogue between urban communities around Denver and the local police. He also pledged to donate $300 for every tackle last season to local organizations committed to addressing “critical social issues.”
And for the past two years, Marshall has organized an Attendance Challenge at local elementary schools, encouraging kids to go to school, learn and use their education.
Detroit Lions: Glover Quin’s activism and humanitarian efforts are impressive
Now in his ninth year in the NFL, Quin has fought for a laundry list of causes throughout his career. He’s held benefits for domestic violence victims, he rallied other Lions players to help donate over 36,000 bottles of water to Flint, and he even helped raise money for his old high school, which was in need for funds to support a basketball team.
Green Bay Packers: The Packers Foundation does good work around the state
The Packers organization itself is an integral part of the Brown County community and is active throughout the state of Wisconsin through the Packers Foundation. Details on the foundation can be found on the team’s website. In a nutshell, non-profit organizations around the state who fall into the team’s rotating focus areas can request funding to help further their goals in the community. In 2016 alone, the foundation donated over $800,000 to various charitable organizations.
Although the team itself is active in the community, there are plenty of individual players who have special causes and efforts that they support. 

Jim Forsythe

Indianapolis Colts: The team participates in Community Tuesdays
While most NFL players have their own individual charitable foundations or focus on providing their support a specific charity, they also often participate as a team to give back to the community. In Indianapolis, the Colts get together on Tuesdays to find numerous ways to make a difference.
Jacksonville Jaguars: Former Jaguar Sen’Derrick Marks took cancer patient to prom
The Jacksonville Jaguars put a focus on community outreach and charitable contributions and there’s always a shelter getting help, hospitals getting visits, and more.
But when thinking about all that Jaguars players have done around the city in recent years, one night stands out: Sen’Derrick Marks taking Khameyea Jennings to prom — and doing it in style.
Kansas City Chiefs: Tyreek Hill surprises a local high school football team
Imagine getting ready for high school football practice and you see the NFL’s fastest man showing up to surprise you. The Chiefs and Tyreek Hill did just that this week.
Los Angeles Chargers: Melvin Gordon drops by to help high school football team
Los Angeles Chargers star running back Melvin Gordon surprised a local southern California high school football team and specifically their placekicker, the only girl on the team, Jennifer.
Miami Dolphins: Michael Thomas has done a little bit of everything off the field
Thomas was clearly the leader in trying to organize efforts to collect donations to send to his native Houston for Hurricane Harvey relief. He has been involved with the First Step Program, a program designed to link local area kids with community leaders. He has worked with the Broward County Sheriff’s Office to conduct a ride along and work on the relationship between the police and the community. He has worked with the Big Brothers and Big Sisters of Miami. He has worked with Food for the Hungry.
Minnesota Vikings: The team is committed to helping children
And we certainly couldn’t talk about all the good the Vikings have done in the community without mentioning the Vikings Children’s Fund, which is now the Minnesota Vikings Foundation. The Vikings Children’s Fund enhanced the lives of numerous children in the Twin Cities over the years, and the Minnesota Vikings Foundation looks ready to continue that legacy by concentrating on getting children up and active in our increasingly sedentary society.
New England Patriots: Players help build a new playground
Rookies Adam Butler and Deatrich Wise teamed up with Geneo Grissom and veteran David Harris to help carry woodchips, assemble playground equipment, and paint decorations for the park. This is the eighth consecutive year the Patriots have helped with this program.
New Orleans Saints: Players regularly pitch in around the New Orleans area
Here’s a look at just some of the things the Saints have done and are doing in the month of September to make an impactA
Community STEM Fest is set for Sept. 30, which is set to feature over 2,000 students and teachers throughout the region to promote the education day.
Brandon Coleman has a put out an experience package for a home game that you can bid on that benefits the Alzheimer’s Association.
On Sept. 19, Cam Jordan visited Smothers Academy in Jefferson, La. to help promote reading.
On Sept. 20, Landon Turner visited Faith Lutheran School in Harahan, La. for the play football experience and to promote NFL Play 60. That same day, Brandon Coleman visited Sojourner Truth Neighborhood Center in New Orleans to celebrate National Healthy Lunch Day with the American Diabetes Association.
New York Giants: The team helps families fighting childhood cancer
One of the primary things the Giants do is support the Tom Coughlin Jay Fund. The Landon Collins Charity Softball Game was held in the summer for that purpose, and Giants players still attend the annual Jay Fund dinner in New York

Jim Forsythe

New York Jets: The Jets are trying to stop bullying
There are a number of specific areas where the team has been active. One such area is promoting anti-bullying. The Jets have taken on a number of initiatives and will present a $100,000 check this Sunday to the STOMP Out Bullying Organization. The team has also holds symposiums for educators to deal with bullying.
San Francisco 49ers: Pierre Garçon continues to raise funds for Haiti relief
Garçon is of Haitian descent, and he has used his platform to help Haiti in its continued efforts to rebuild after the 2010 earthquake. It’s been seven years, but the country still has a lot of work to do. Garçon has used his foundation to, “bring enduring education, health and community programs to the people of Haiti; to provide long-term sustainable initiatives that will continue to positively influence the lives of Haitians.”
Seattle Seahawks: Tyler Lockett wants to help kids enjoy their childhood
Lockett made an appearance at White Center Heights Elementary in Seattle, unveiling a new playground for their Head Start program, thanks to a $15,000 grant from UnitedHealthcare to Lockett’s Dreambuilders Foundation. Dreambuilders is described as: “a nonprofit organization that works with pro athletes across the country to help financially, physically and mentally-challenged kids receive the items, opportunities and equipment they need to reach their dreams.”
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Bucs lend a hand with hurricane relief
One of those Bucs is Jameis Winston, who’s always done a lot of community work, and he helped distribute food and donated gift cards to over 400 families affected by the hurricane. Each family received a whopping 35 pounds of food as part of the Food for Florida Disaster Food Assistance Program.
Tennessee Titans: Players support National Baby Safety Month
Several Titans players took time earlier this week to visit St. Thomas Rutherford Hospital to promote safe sleep with infants.
“Here at Saint Thomas Rutherford Hospital, infant safety is our top focus,” said Angelique Dooley, RNC, nurse manager. “We make it a priority to educate new moms and dads from the time they arrive at the hospital until they are discharged home, including a birthday party in which we actively discuss safe sleep practices, as well as other safety concerns. We are so excited to partner with the Tennessee Titans to bring awareness to our community on safe sleep practices.”
Washington: Vernon Davis is involved in numerous ways to help his hometown of D.C.
Vernon’s Closet, a recent event designed to raise awareness and support for the homeless, provided an opportunity for the player to talk a little bit about his sometimes turbulent upbringing and his goals for his city.
“It is my desire to use Vernon’s Closet as a way to raise more awareness to homelessness; especially among D.C. area youth and hopefully encourage others to get involved as well,” Davis said.

Carlos Ponce

Is that all, Jim, just another handful?

Jim Forsythe

I would hope that there would be more of good character "
I have provided you with a large number of Men that have good character.
Below are just a few of the Texans , if you want the rest go to http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster.html
As far as I know none of the players on the active roster are of bad character .
The NFL has interviews with collage player before they are drafted. Some don't make it past this stage.
Texans have released players for bad behavior.
There have been NFL player with problems, just like any Business has with their employees..
Such as Teaching, which has had it's problems. 
Quessenberry, David 
Was diagnosed with Lymphoma in June 2014 and was away from the team battling the disease last season
Allen, Jeff ,Anderson, Stephen ,Banks, Johnthan , Blue, Alfred ,Burley, Marcus ,Clark, Chris ,Clowney, Jadeveon

Jim Forsythe

The NFL makes their rules and policy's They choose how to enforce them. To prevent any knelling by the players,they stayed in locker room. In 2008, were you upset when players stayed in the locker room, for the anthem, in the games you watched? If you were not then , why are you upset with the Steelers doing it now? If you did not or do not watch the games, why do you care, if they stay in the locker room?

What many people are missing in this debate is the fact that prior to 2009, NFL teams did not generally stand for the anthem. While having the option to do so individually if they chose to, most of the time they stayed in the locker room during this pregame ritual.
“NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy confirmed this morning the practice began in 2009, adding, ‘As you know, the NFL has a long tradition of patriotism. Players are encouraged but not required to stand for the anthem.’”
it's a part of the league's game operations manual, which is distributed to every NFL team. So, technically, "it’s policy, it’s not a rule," NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy said.
"I think where people are getting confused is, rules, that’s like holding or defensive pass interference, that’s a rule. This is policy."

Doyle Beard

long tradition of patriotism is a joke. taking millions of dollars to promote the armed forces is patriotism . This guy Brian is a typical NFL, Trying to confuse ruls and policies. Violate your company policy (rule or policy) and will probably get some feedback. come on Brain McCRTHY. poor way of defending your money grubbing organization. you act like you aare speaking to naive people.

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